> I've got to get my blackberries trellised! . My berries are Triple
> Crown and Chester.
Hi, Sabra. They are thornless, right? We planted Black Satin thornless
years ago. The biggest berries you have ever seen but not good fresh
unless the shine has gone off of them and they SHOULD be past prime. So
far I haven't found any named varieties of thornless but one of t he
ones I was looking for was Chester. Can you eat them fresh when they
look the best - shiny in particular?? Are Triple Crown thornless? In
desperation, we planted some self seeded wild blackberries in the fruit
garden just so we can eat some fresh. Visitors have to try the Black
Satin even with a warning but never doubt us again
**********************************
Joan - My Country Garden
http://www.mycountrygarden.net
Black Satin second eh.....hmm I am starting to think that all the
thornless varieties are only sweet when past "prime". I hope I am wrong
for your sake, Sabra. We have good growing conditions here and have
been growing them for at least 10 to 15 years. They are huge but like I
said before not sweet when you would think they would be - very shiny
and well formed huge berries. The wild ones are sweet near the same
area as the cultivated ones.
Regarding pruning, we just prune out the old canes and may cut back some
of the tall growth on the new canes but usually just leave them to
themselves as we have a large area for
them........................................Joan
**********************************
Joan - My Country Garden
http://www.mycountrygarden.net
I use ours for juice and for jam which I add sugar but I would love to
go out and graze the fruit garden and eat fresh fruit including these
blackberries. Oh well, we now have some cultivated "wild" ones for that
now.......................Joan
**********************************
Joan - My Country Garden
http://www.mycountrygarden.net
I've got to get my blackberries trellised! I planted them this past spring
and read that they didn't need trellising until the next spring. However,
i've got vines all over my paths and am having trouble mowing and weeding
and such. I had planned on using these old locust posts, but now i realize
they aren't tall enough. They would only be 4' above the ground. My berries
are Triple Crown and Chester. I believe i need posts 5' high. The only
posts i can find are either treated - which i won't use - or metal T-posts.
I haven't found any locust posts for sale. Most people around here cut them
themselves and i don't have time to do that right now.
I have three rows of 16 and one row of 4. I'm planning on using three
wires, one above the other, as opposed to the type of trellising where one
puts the canes in between wires. So, any advice? What should i use? If i
use T-posts, how far apart? How should i secure them at the ends, so that
they don't pull inwards?
Also, does anyone have a good (meaning, inexpensive) source for those
weather-proof ties?
Thanks for your advice.
I have Chester and Navajo. Both need to be past the shiny stage to be good
fresh, but they are great for wine.
I put the Chesters on an old 3 wire grape trellis, and the Navajos in a narrow
"fenced in area" I bought some 7', I think, maybe 8' regular metal fence posts
from Lowes and put them about 2 to 2 1/2 feet apart with 2 strands of fairly
heavy wire running around them. The row is 40' long and there are 3 posts on
each side. I like this method much better. I can tuck the new canes under the
wires if they come out. I ran some wire around the posts in the grape arbor to
try to accomplish the same thing, but since the posts are only about 8' thick,
it is harder to tuck the canes in. In both cases if I miss the canes and they
are too big to tuck in. I tie them up with old cotton sheet strips to the wires.
Since I'm not sure what you mean by a T post, I can't help, there, but these are
constructed like regular fence posts, like a channel, with a wedge shaped think
on the end that goes in the ground.
how much do yo know about pruning them??? I don't know much and do it by guess
and by gosh. Lately I've been cutting the canes at about 6' because they really
get unwieldy if I don't.
susan
sabra robinson wrote:
Thanks for the information on trellising.
This is the first time i have tried growing blackberries, so all i know is
what i've read and seen. I visited several other people's patches before
planting mine, but never saw pruning in action.
So far, i'm not having great success, as 12 out of 50 intially died. The
company replaced the 12, and of those only 4 grew. I did the first planting
April 15. I don't recall when i got the replacement 12, but the very wet
spell was over. Probably June sometime. I recently read that exposing the
roots to light during planting is a problem. No one told me that, and i did
plant them in the day. Has anyone heard of this? Could this be why i lost
so many? I should mention that we had an unusually wet spring and very hot
and dry summer. So, even though i've been watering, i assumed the bad
weather conditioned accounted for my poor success rate.
By the way, for those who gave me advice on propagating, i've got several
cane ends burried and some are starting to grow roots. Actually, what
really happened, is that some had already started growing roots, so i
marked and burried them a bit. I expect i should get some starts from these.
Sabra
SE Ohio
Yes, mine are thornless. This turned out to be a good thing, for unexpected
reasons. I had one cane come up that seemed like it was in such an odd
spot. Nevertheless, i weeded it and watered it for awhile. However, it
turned out to have thorns, so i finally figured it was a wild intruder!
I got mine from Indiana Berry Company. Tripple Crown is rated - according
to their catalog - very highest for taste. Black Satin is second, so it
should have a good flavor. But these ratings, well, fruit quality, can
really depend on growing conditions. Chester is rated only acceptable for
flavor, so i'm surprised i ordered it since i'm hoping to sell these at a
farmers market in a few years. I don't remember why i selected that
variety. Probably on the recommendation of someone who told me their fruit
is superb.
> I put the Chesters on an old 3 wire grape trellis, and the Navajos in a narrow
> "fenced in area"
I've seen some setups similar to what you describe. But the reason i
thought i'd do a single fence line, so to speak, is that it seems
harvesting between the two sets of wires would be difficult.
I believe the posts you describe are basically what people out here call
T-posts. But at 2 - 21/2 feet apart, i'd need about 150 of them. I have
about 330' of berries (not all in one line; planted in three and a quarter
rows.)
The 2 to 2 1/2' apart is the width of the area. they are about 18' apart the
length of the bed. the bed is 40 feet long.
susan
sabra robinson wrote:
I have a feeling that ALL of the thornless berries are not as sweet as the wild
ones. They sure aren't here. you have to let them get really ripe, but some
people like them tart. Most people use them for pies, i think.
susan
Joan wrote:
Hmmm. Well, maybe i'll have to market them to bakeries, for pie. We have
three pie companies here. And some people who make and sell jam.
> The 2 to 2 1/2' apart is the width of the area. they are about 18' apart the
> length of the bed. the bed is 40 feet long.
> susan
Oh, that sounds much better. I misunderstood. Do you think it would work if
i put in posts every 18', but in a single row, down the middle? Do you
think the posts at the end would need extra bracing, to prevent them from
pulling in?
It might work, but that is what is frustrating about the way I trellised the
others. (by wrapping a wire around the 6 to 8" post,) it is too hard to get the
canes inside the wires. With the wires 2 to 3' apart most of the canes will grow
up inside the "fencing" and there won't be so many to bend down and poke inside
of it. If you put them every 18 feet and have to tie the canes up on the wire,
there will be quite a bit of pulling, so it might need bracing, but mine don't
need it as very few of them are actually tied to the wires.
*------------------*-----------------------*
X X X X X X X X
*------------------*-----------------------*
The X's are the canes and the fencing is obvious, there is very little tying up.
susan
sabra robinson wrote:
At least no one will ever see the metal! It will be overgrown in a couple of weeks. Good luck.
Carol
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Put a post in as a brace to keep the tension on the wires. One at each end of
the run. I use one wire system on my berries. It is about 4 feet off the
ground. I weave the canes. Pruning is important to keep only two or three
canes per plant. Here in WNC they will grow most of the winter getting quite
long by next summer. Now is the time to cut out all the old canes because we
have just finished the last harvest. (I don't have the time yet)_
Chris
sabra robinson wrote:
Fellow berry pickers:
Setzler wrote:
[snip]
I switched to this method and prefer it. New canes mostly grow up,
while the 2nd year canes bend over, esp when heavy with berries,
bringing the berries to the path and easier picking.
Topping just before berries ripen and shortening the laterals in the
winter works well for me. I stopped at a pick-your-own south of
Charlottesville, VA and saw that they had shortened the laterals near
the ground to one bud. Did that and have almost no berries on the
ground this year.
Dave
-------
David Alleman
1245 Upland Dr.
Harrisonburg, VA 22802
540/433/4008
I'd love to try another type of blackberry. I've got a couple of unknown
type that are pretty good tasting, but I'm sure there are better ones and I
just made up some 25 gallon pots for new ones. If you want me to send you
some money for shipping let me know.
Bob Blum
702 Calle Cumbre
San Clemente, CA 92673
Behalf Of Carol Jensen
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 10:45 AM
To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: blackberry trellises
Well, I would be happy to send my very very thorny Rubus armenica as an end
shoot (no soil) to anyone who would like a blackberry that can be eaten off
the cane. I do it every day and have since July - and the damned canes have
only just begun! Six feet up or more they are full of flowers several
places.
This is one very tasty blackberry!
Carol
------------------------------------------------------
E-book compiling, editing and HTML-coding.
Also ghostwriting. Were you in Europe during
WWII? I want to compile a book of that time.
------------------------------------------------------
It will never get there, Bob. Other gardeners and I have written until
we're blue in the face about the new USDA restrictions on imported plant
material. Everything, including seeds, has to have a phytosanitary
certificate. I don't know whether such are issued in Denmark or how much
they cost. Canada charges $12, NZ charges $90, I was told. Margaret L
I guess it was wishful thinking on my part. I forgot that governments will
allow genetically modified plant food to pollute the food shelves in our
stores without labeling it as such, encourage farmers to put poisonous
chemicals on all their crops without labeling it, and shoot up animals with
every known antibiotic and steroid around without labeling it, but stop
someone from giving a healthy organic plant to someone else. I'll try and
behave in the future.
Bob Blum
Behalf Of Margaret Lauterbach
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 12:11 PM
To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: blackberry trellises
It will never get there, Bob. Other gardeners and I have written until
we're blue in the face about the new USDA restrictions on imported plant
material. Everything, including seeds, has to have a phytosanitary
certificate. I don't know whether such are issued in Denmark or how much
they cost. Canada charges $12, NZ charges $90, I was told. Margaret L
I wish I could help but I don't know much about blackberries, except that
they taste great and are very nutritious. There were some blackberries on
my "slope" when I started terracing it and I saved some in very large pots
and they just took off. So I don't know much about them except that they
grow like weeds and I have to fight the birds for the berries (amazing how
the birds can work their way under a net for a snack even with two big dogs
and two cats on patrol.)
Bob Blum
Behalf Of Carol Jensen
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 1:08 PM
To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: blackberry trellises
> I'd love to try another type of blackberry. I've got a couple of
unknown
I'm pretty rich this month, Bob. I WOULD like some advice about how to pack
the end shoot of next year's cane so it will survive perhaps a week's
shipping. Has anyone tried this, or does anyone have a good idea.
Blackberries grow like weeds, but I'm pretty sure one can kill them...
Carol
------------------------------------------------------
E-book compiling, editing and HTML-coding.
Also ghostwriting. Were you in Europe during
WWII? I want to compile a book of that time.
------------------------------------------------------
I'm a little more trusting of people on this list. I don't imagine anyone
would be sending me a diseased plant. I'm not very knowledgeable about the
spreading plant diseases so I'd appreciate any input, but I live on the
coast of Southern California and doubt that anyone within a couple of
hundred miles raises blackberries. There are still some citrus orchards
within thirty or forty miles and some strawberry fields around, but my
understanding is that they put so many chemicals on the plants that no
disease can spread there. If someone knows that my planting a few
blackberries in containers is a potential environmental disaster that can
spread from a beach community I'd like to know. It's really not something
I've ever worried about before. I can't imagine that any disease could get
very far from my house unless it could thrive in native California habitat
(i.e. palm trees, cactus, kelp, etc.)
Bob Blum
Behalf Of Margaret Lauterbach
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 1:32 PM
To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: blackberry trellises
I'm extremely concerned about the genetically modified crops, and am
thoroughly embarrassed that the U.S. Government is trying to push GM corn
down the throats of the starving Africans (Zimbabwe?) since they can't sell
the damned stuff. I have no quarrel with the rest of your remarks except
"healthy organic plant"...how do you know it's healthy? I don't know what
diseases cane fruits may have. I do know that Plum Pox was accidentally
imported to the U.S. on a "healthy" scion, and the area in which it got a
toehold is now under quarantine. Margaret L
That's smuggling, Carol. I would not do or countenance that with shoots or
cuttings or even plants. I think the regulations are silly regarding
seeds, and they're putting people out of business in other countries. Yet
another reason to hate Americans. But i don't want importation of more
plant disease into this country. Margaret L
I'm extremely concerned about the genetically modified crops, and am
thoroughly embarrassed that the U.S. Government is trying to push GM corn
down the throats of the starving Africans (Zimbabwe?) since they can't sell
the damned stuff. I have no quarrel with the rest of your remarks except
"healthy organic plant"...how do you know it's healthy? I don't know what
diseases cane fruits may have. I do know that Plum Pox was accidentally
imported to the U.S. on a "healthy" scion, and the area in which it got a
toehold is now under quarantine. Margaret L
Why don't you ask the California Dept. of Agriculture people? I know Carol
wouldn't knowingly send you diseased material, but she doesn't have access
to a microscope (few of us do), and in a climate such as California's where
anything that could go wrong will, I wouldn't take chances. Bob, many
plants and diseases (and insects) grow and thrive where you are. Some are
even invasive. USDA, in its oh, so finite wisdom, regards anything that's
invasive in Hawaii or California or Florida as invasive to all of the
United States. They conveniently ignore freezing as a sometime panacea. So
as long as the rest of us are stuck with that, we'd appreciate (at least I
would) your utmost care. Margaret L
First, Sabra, let me tell you that you will have about 100 plants the first year and about 10,000 the following year, so you have to watch those volunteer blackberries!
Second, EVERYTHING ought to be planted either in rain or after sundown in your hot climate (or even my cold climate, though overcast weather is fine.)
About pruning, of course I have different blackberries, but:
The canes that have borne berries this year turn brown and dry, so they can just be broken off around Christmas. I have used them for kindling, thorns and all!
The new ones, that will bear next year, are already grown out. I cut them back in the spring. Well, having been doing that, have I? But I will do it next spring and have already started.
So, all in all, it is very very easy to prune! Hope yours are as easy.
Carol
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E-book compiling, editing and HTML-coding.
Also ghostwriting. Were you in Europe during
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------------------------------------------------------
Well, I would be happy to send my very very thorny Rubus armenica as an end shoot (no soil) to anyone who would like a blackberry that can be eaten off the cane. I do it every day and have since July - and the damned canes have only just begun! Six feet up or more they are full of flowers several places.
This is one very tasty blackberry!
Carol
------------------------------------------------------
E-book compiling, editing and HTML-coding.
Also ghostwriting. Were you in Europe during
WWII? I want to compile a book of that time.
------------------------------------------------------
> coast of Southern California and doubt that anyone within a couple of
> hundred miles raises blackberries.
This LA area columnist suggests 'Boysen' or 'Ollalie', 'Young',
'Cascade', 'Marion', 'Himilaya', and 'Thornless Evergreen' as suitable
cultivars for Southern California:
http://www.latimes.com/extras/homeandgarden/garden_wk3.html
As for vendors, several members of the California Rare Fruit sell
blackberries...including some vendors located in California that are
selling blackberries such as 'Ollalie' and 'Marion':
http://www.crfg.org/nurlist.html
No guarantee as to whether they're organic...but you could always mail
order some blackberries or talk to your local nursery and have them
order some plants for you.
Barb in Southern Indiana Zone 5/6 dorsettb@kiva.net
A garden is a friend you can visit any time.
Gardens co-listowner gardens-request@lsv.uky
http://lsv.uky.edu/archives/gardens.html
I'm pretty rich this month, Bob. I WOULD like some advice about how to pack the end shoot of next year's cane so it will survive perhaps a week's shipping. Has anyone tried this, or does anyone have a good idea. Blackberries grow like weeds, but I'm pretty sure one can kill them...
Carol
------------------------------------------------------
E-book compiling, editing and HTML-coding.
Also ghostwriting. Were you in Europe during
WWII? I want to compile a book of that time.
------------------------------------------------------
Yes it will, Margaret, since I will send it as a letter in a padded envelope. Only packages get opened.
Carol
------------------------------------------------------
E-book compiling, editing and HTML-coding.
Also ghostwriting. Were you in Europe during
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------------------------------------------------------
Has anyone tried these blackberries?
http://www.fruitsandberries.com/
--
Tim Butterfield
http://www.timbutterfield.com/
I would like to know the name of the berries. They look smaller than the
thornless I have.
susan
Tim Butterfield wrote:
What exactly do you mean by topping? and shortening the laterals?
susan
Julia Alleman wrote:
I found a page that said it was a Doyle blackberry. Which one do you
have? How does it produce: quantity, flavor, seeds, suckers, etc.?
Our farm in the Missouri Ozarks has wild blackberries in the pasture
that I would like to replace with a cultivated variety in a better
location. For this berry, the quantity and not suckering sounds good,
but I don't want to give up flavor.
--
Tim Butterfield
http://www.timbutterfield.com/
Setzler wrote:
> I would like to know the name of the berries. They look smaller than
> the thornless I have.
> Tim Butterfield wrote:
> Has anyone tried these blackberries?
> http://www.fruitsandberries.com/
I have Chester, and Navajo, and they are very similar in flavor. Neither sucker
very much, but neither has the taste of a wild blackberry, but they are bigger
than the wild ones. to get sweetness, you have to let them stay on the vine
after turning black for a while. But they make good jams pies and wine.
susan
Tim Butterfield wrote:
AndI I have Black Satin thornless blackberries. Same thing- huge
berries, good crop but you can only eat them fresh when they look past
"prime" which really means when they are just starting to rot
use wild "cultivated" blackberries in our garden for fresh off the vine
eating. So far, I haven't heard of one thornless that are sweet enough
to eat fresh. I wonder if there is such a thornless
blackberry..................Joan
**********************************
Joan - My Country Garden
http://www.mycountrygarden.net
In a message dated 9/5/02 7:33:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, joanr@SHAW.CA
writes:
<< AndI I have Black Satin thornless blackberries. Same thing- huge
berries, good crop but you can only eat them fresh when they look past
"prime" which really means when they are just starting to rot
use wild "cultivated" blackberries in our garden for fresh off the vine
eating. So far, I haven't heard of one thornless that are sweet enough
to eat fresh. I wonder if there is such a thornless
blackberry..................Joan >>
Make you wonder if the sugar gene and the thorn gene are related.
Mary Ann
--------------090409080303060503030609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Setzler wrote: >What exactly do you mean by topping? and shortening the laterals? > Pinching back the growing end. If done mid summer, this can be done with a sharp fingernail. Often I don't get it done and wait till I must use a pruning tool. I assume that the benefit is that you limit the amount of energy going into the cane. Some of my untopped canes are 10 feet or more. I am not sure how much difference it makes when you do this topping. Shortening the laterals: Normally some shoots emerge from the junction of leaf and stem. More develop if you top the black berries or raspberries. Some of these will get quite long, especially if you prune/top early. The laterals produce most of the fruit. Clearer this time? Dave >David Alleman wrote: > >>Fellow berry pickers: >> >> >> >>Topping just before berries ripen and shortening the laterals in the >>winter works well for me. I stopped at a pick-your-own south of >>Charlottesville, VA and saw that they had shortened the laterals near >>the ground to one bud. Did that and have almost no berries on the >>ground this year. >>Dave >> >>------- >>David Alleman >>1245 Upland Dr. >>Harrisonburg, VA 22802 >> >>540/433/4008 >> > -- Julia and David Alleman 1245 Upland Dr. Harrisonburg, VA 22802 540/433/4008 --------------090409080303060503030609 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Setzler wrote:
What exactly do you mean by topping? and shortening the laterals?
Pinching back the growing end. If done mid summer, this can be done with a sharp fingernail. Often I don't get it done and wait till I must use a pruning tool. I assume that the benefit is that you limit the amount of energy going into the cane. Some of my untopped canes are 10 feet or more.
I am not sure how much difference it makes when you do this topping.
Shortening the laterals:
Normally some shoots emerge from the junction of leaf and stem. More develop if you top the black berries or raspberries. Some of these will get quite long, especially if you prune/top early. The laterals produce most of the fruit.
Clearer this time?
Dave
David Alleman wrote:
Fellow berry pickers:
Topping just before berries ripen and shortening the laterals in the
winter works well for me. I stopped at a pick-your-own south of
Charlottesville, VA and saw that they had shortened the laterals near
the ground to one bud. Did that and have almost no berries on the
ground this year.
Dave
-------
David Alleman
1245 Upland Dr.
Harrisonburg, VA 22802
540/433/4008
-- Julia and David Alleman 1245 Upland Dr. Harrisonburg, VA 22802 540/433/4008
--------------090409080303060503030609--
I planted a Doyle last spring and it has put up 10"
canes - I just went and found the first ripe ones, and
they seemed sweet enough, but the flavor is blander
than our local Himalayan berries. I love our locals
and am kind of disappointed that these taste
different. But I can see that it will be a large,
*kind*, very fruitful plant.
nancy
pac nw
--- Tim Butterfield
wrote:
__________________________________________________
--------------3C6E075373D8F630A51CEFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, thanks, I have been doing this the last couple of years, but haven't heard what length you should top them and how long the laterals should grow?? susan Julia Alleman wrote: > > > Setzler wrote: > >> What exactly do you mean by topping? and shortening the laterals? >> > > Pinching back the growing end. If done mid summer, this can be done with a > sharp fingernail. Often I don't get it done and wait till I must use a > pruning tool. I assume that the benefit is that you limit the amount of > energy going into the cane. Some of my untopped canes are 10 feet or more. > > I am not sure how much difference it makes when you do this topping. > > > Shortening the laterals: > > Normally some shoots emerge from the junction of leaf and stem. More develop > if you top the black berries or raspberries. Some of these will get quite > long, especially if you prune/top early. The laterals produce most of the > fruit. > > Clearer this time? > Dave > >> David Alleman wrote: >> >> >> > Fellow berry pickers: >> > >> > >> > >> > Topping just before berries ripen and shortening the laterals in the >> > winter works well for me. I stopped at a pick-your-own south of >> > Charlottesville, VA and saw that they had shortened the laterals near >> > the ground to one bud. Did that and have almost no berries on the >> > ground this year. >> > Dave >> > >> > ------- >> > David Alleman >> > 1245 Upland Dr. >> > Harrisonburg, VA 22802 >> > >> > 540/433/4008 >> > > -- > Julia and David Alleman > 1245 Upland Dr. > Harrisonburg, VA 22802 > > 540/433/4008 > > --------------3C6E075373D8F630A51CEFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, thanks, I have been doing this the last couple of years, but haven't heard what length you should top them and how long the laterals should grow??
susan
Julia Alleman wrote:
Setzler wrote:
What exactly do you mean by topping? and shortening the laterals?
Pinching back the growing end. If done mid summer, this can be done with a sharp fingernail. Often I don't get it done and wait till I must use a pruning tool. I assume that the benefit is that you limit the amount of energy going into the cane. Some of my untopped canes are 10 feet or more.
I am not sure how much difference it makes when you do this topping.
Shortening the laterals:
Normally some shoots emerge from the junction of leaf and stem. More develop if you top the black berries or raspberries. Some of these will get quite long, especially if you prune/top early. The laterals produce most of the fruit.
Clearer this time?
Dave
David Alleman wrote:
Fellow berry pickers: Topping just before berries ripen and shortening the laterals in the winter works well for me. I stopped at a pick-your-own south of Charlottesville, VA and saw that they had shortened the laterals near the ground to one bud. Did that and have almost no berries on the ground this year. Dave ------- David Alleman 1245 Upland Dr. Harrisonburg, VA 22802 540/433/4008
-- Julia and David Alleman 1245 Upland Dr. Harrisonburg, VA 22802 540/433/4008 --------------3C6E075373D8F630A51CEFC0--
Mary Ann Mikulski wrote:
Mary Ann
It certainly sounds as though there could be some connection. Quite a
headache for the breeders if so!
Moira
--
Tony & Moira Ryan,
Wainuiomata, North Island, NZ. Pictures of our garden at:-
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cherie1/Garden/TonyandMoira/index.htm
