Yesterday I noticed lots of small black ants clustered around a sort of
crease in the crotch of the Japanese maple -- not really a crack in the
wood, but definitely hollow in there because they were all going IN.
These are pretty small, but from what I just read (googled carpenter ants)
they can be as small as 1/4".
Can (should?) I spray a pesticide into that crease -- or should I sprinkle
boric acid into the area and all around? The crease is at the base of the
third "trunk" of this 3-trunked tree, and I'd hate to lose it. I don't see
any "sawdust" in the area (yet?) Could these be some other type of ant?
Should I destroy the nest whatever they may be?
Thank you whomever has suggestions..
karen, nj
Hi Karen, there certainly could be other reasons why they are in the
tree than that they are carpenter ants. Can you get a positive ID?
Someone once tried to show me something about the mandible (?) of a
carpenter ant that would allow one to recognize it but the lesson didn't
take.
But ants could be harmlessly using empty space or found a supply of food
(sap?) or? Can you figure out what caused the hole in the tree in the
first place? I didn't even think that carpenter ants went after live
trees but I'm not really an expert here.
Esther
karen swaine
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:26 AM
To: GARDENS@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: ants living in tree!
Yesterday I noticed lots of small black ants clustered around a sort of
crease in the crotch of the Japanese maple -- not really a crack in the
wood, but definitely hollow in there because they were all going IN.
These are pretty small, but from what I just read (googled carpenter
ants)
they can be as small as 1/4".
Can (should?) I spray a pesticide into that crease -- or should I
sprinkle
boric acid into the area and all around? The crease is at the base of
the
third "trunk" of this 3-trunked tree, and I'd hate to lose it. I don't
see
any "sawdust" in the area (yet?) Could these be some other type of ant?
Should I destroy the nest whatever they may be?
Thank you whomever has suggestions..
karen, nj
UC Davis has a key for IDing various common household ant species:
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/TOOLS/ANTKEY/
Be aware, this key is focused on west coast species.
It doesn't really matter *which* species is invading, but here's UC =
Davis's
recommendations for getting rid of carpenter ants:
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7416.html
Now, as to your tree....
What's happening, since ants are nesting? Trees have a living layer, =
but
their core is relatively inactive wood. Somehow, the crotch has allowed =
an
opening into that core and may be allowing moisture in that's starting a
rot, slowly enlarging the hole. Ants are taking advantage of that =
somewhat
protected space. If the entry hole is small enough and well placed, =
with a
wide angled crotch that allows for easy healing, you can let the bark =
grow
and seal over the hole during the next season or so.
If the crotch is narrow, you need to figure out a way to allow that area =
to
heal over...without allowing further moisture in. If you don't, you'll
eventually lose one or the other limb...because that narrow crotch is a =
weak
spot. It always will be a weak spot, and that's why arborists recommend
wide crotches for tree branches. You might want to rethink that third =
trunk
system, and opt for a two trunk system.
Barb in Southern Indiana Zone 5/6 dorsettb@kiva.net
Finding a place for a garden can be just like a
treasure hunt. ~ Sheryl London
> Yesterday I noticed lots of small black ants clustered around a sort =
of
> crease in the crotch of the Japanese maple -- not really a crack in =
the
> wood, but definitely hollow in there because they were all going IN.
> These are pretty small, but from what I just read (googled carpenter =
ants)
> they can be as small as 1/4".
> Can (should?) I spray a pesticide into that crease -- or should I =
sprinkle
> boric acid into the area and all around? The crease is at the base of =
the
> third "trunk" of this 3-trunked tree, and I'd hate to lose it. I =
don't
> see
> any "sawdust" in the area (yet?) Could these be some other type of =
ant?
It's not a hole -- try to visualize the part (called the crotch) of tree
where 2 trunks start to separate -- there's a sort of "crease" there that
mush be hollow somewhere -- the bark is not damaged... but the ants have
discovered it.
I'll go back to the site that I found and see if there's a way to ID
carpenter ants -- but what about the fact that there are NAY kind of ants in
there -- is it harmful? I should know this kind of thing - or I should look
it up in my tree book! When I have time, I will... and I'll cal extension
agent too.
karen, nj
All that I can tell you is I know of similar situations where ants are
not doing direct harm. For example, ants "farm" aphids on plant like
roses. They themselves do not damage the roses at all, although the
aphids do. Also, I seem to remember them in the peach trees all of the
time when I was a kid because of the sap, which I also liked to let dry
and chew (the sticky sap, not the ants.) Most ants are scavengers and
don't directly attack living things; even carpenter ants are useful
because in the woods they break down dead trees, become food for
woodpeckers in the process, etc. But your mileage may vary.
Esther
karen swaine
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:20 AM
To: GARDENS@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: ants living in tree!
It's not a hole -- try to visualize the part (called the crotch) of tree
where 2 trunks start to separate -- there's a sort of "crease" there
that
mush be hollow somewhere -- the bark is not damaged... but the ants have
discovered it.
I'll go back to the site that I found and see if there's a way to ID
carpenter ants -- but what about the fact that there are NAY kind of
ants in
there -- is it harmful? I should know this kind of thing - or I should
look
it up in my tree book! When I have time, I will... and I'll cal
extension
agent too.
karen, nj
didn't
> take.
> But ants could be harmlessly using empty space or found a supply of
food
of
> crease in the crotch of the Japanese maple -- not really a crack in
the
don't
> see
> any "sawdust" in the area (yet?) Could these be some other type of
ant?
I realized immediately that this was bound to be problematic, because=
(altho
I didn't mention it) the crotch IS very very narrow, and that's what =
creates
the "crease". So... I'm wondering, do I first "kill" these ants (with=
what?)
and do I then perhaps use that old fashion stuff they used to fill tr=
ee
cracks, holes with -- or, perhaps, even cement? Silicone? I know this=
tree
is going to go -- who ever planted it never thought about anything...=
it's
"under" 2 mature sugar maples which are only 4' apart (I'm serious) o=
n my
cousin's property. The 3 trunks all lean way out toward the south to=
get
light. Eventually, the tree will fall over, or the trunks will crack=
from
the strain...(I am not going to spend money cabling this tree!). But=
I'd
like to keep it as long as possible -- it's such gorgeous color in sp=
ring
and fall, and gives some shade early in the day in summer.
already took down its "mate" which was on the other side of the walk,=
had 3
of 5 trunks left alive, all in 45=BA angles from ground, and wrap-aro=
und roots
were slowly strangling the tree. I took the entire thing down.
I planted a little Sourwood tree on that side... and on the side wher=
e this
other maple (infested with the ants) lives, I have put in a (very sma=
ll)
Parrotia, figuring it will take up lots of space eventually. I hope.=
I
hope I'm around to see it!!! haha.
karen, nj
=46rom: "B. Dorsett"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: ants living in tree!
> UC Davis has a key for IDing various common household ant species:
> http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/TOOLS/ANTKEY/
> Be aware, this key is focused on west coast species.
> It doesn't really matter *which* species is invading, but here's UC
Davis's
> recommendations for getting rid of carpenter ants:
> http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7416.html
> Now, as to your tree....
> What's happening, since ants are nesting? Trees have a living laye=
r, but
> their core is relatively inactive wood. Somehow, the crotch has al=
lowed
an
> opening into that core and may be allowing moisture in that's start=
ing a
> rot, slowly enlarging the hole. Ants are taking advantage of that
somewhat
> protected space. If the entry hole is small enough and well placed=
, with
a
> wide angled crotch that allows for easy healing, you can let the ba=
rk grow
> and seal over the hole during the next season or so.
> If the crotch is narrow, you need to figure out a way to allow that=
area
to
> heal over...without allowing further moisture in. If you don't, yo=
u'll
> eventually lose one or the other limb...because that narrow crotch =
is a
weak
> spot. It always will be a weak spot, and that's why arborists reco=
mmend
> wide crotches for tree branches. You might want to rethink that th=
ird
trunk
ort of
> crease in the crotch of the Japanese maple -- not really a crack =
in the
> wood, but definitely hollow in there because they were all going =
IN.
> These are pretty small, but from what I just read (googled carpen=
ter
ants)
> they can be as small as 1/4".
> Can (should?) I spray a pesticide into that crease -- or should I
sprinkle
> boric acid into the area and all around? The crease is at the ba=
se of
the
> third "trunk" of this 3-trunked tree, and I'd hate to lose it. I=
don't
> see
> any "sawdust" in the area (yet?) Could these be some other type =
of ant?
Someone will probably say this is a bad idea and it was a little
different situation, but...............When we bought our place we had a
big hole in one of the trees where a branch had fallen off at some point
I guess. The hole was about 3 feet off the ground and about a 3 inch
diameter and everytime it rained it filled with water. We were afraid it
would eventually cause the whole tree to rot. So we figured we had
nothing to lose and DH filled it with concrete. It's 17 years later and
the tree is still there - bigger than it was then and still growing. So
I'm glad we did it. Would insect killer hurt the tree if you shot some
in the crack? They sell a liquid spray called Bug Stop at the Walmart
down here that I like. If you just spray a little won't they all start
pouring out? I think I'd try to get the ants out somehow. I think they
have to eat the boric acid for it to kill them. I bought some in a small
squeeze bottle that's mixed with sugar or honey or something to get them
to eat it.
We have a tabebuia at the condo that a storm partially uprooted and it is
at less than a 45 degree angle. We had to take a piece of 6x6 to support
it. Since it hangs down so much the foliage hides the 6x6 from the front
view. You have to walk around the side to see it, and it backs up on our
vegetative border so no one sees the back of it. This happened in 2000
and the tree is still living although it didn't bloom much at all this
year. I won't be surprised if another bad storm uproots it completely.
Karen (Pittsburgh, PA zone 5b/6) now on Sanibel Island, zone 10
On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:26:33 -0400 karen swaine
writes:
A spray of water? I still don't understand the situation with the tree.
Do you think they are hiving there, or just getting something like food?
In order to have a serious hive of ants, actually living and breeding
there, wouldn't your tree would have to be in trouble? Conversely, why
would you need to do anything to them if they aren't directly damaging
the tree?
Esther
confused
Well, Karen, current wisdom is that you should not fill holes in
trees because it can simply trap moisture inside and encourage fungi
to rot the tree.
Those ants could simply be visiting a source of sweetness or they
could, as has been mentioned, be living in what is already a hole
inside the tree. In either case, the ants themselves aren't harming
the tree. All the carpenter ants I've seen are very large, not tiny
ones and they leave sawdust around from their munching activities.
If there's already rot started inside the tree, there is little you
can do about it. You could remove one of the stems forming the
crotch and try to remove the rotted area, but I have a feeling that
would make the tree look awful.
You could take a slender probe - ice pick comes to mind - and see if
there is any softness at the location of this crotch join. If there
is, you know you've got rot already. If all seems sound, then the
ants could be there for some other reason.
If you know this tree's days are numbered, then just enjoy the time
you have left with it; plant a baby near it and when the baby grows
enough, remove this tree.
If you want to get rid of the ants, you need to put out a boric
acid/sugar solution so they will carry it back to their nest.
Otherwise, you'll kill the ones hit by whatever ant-i-cide, but
hundreds more will hatch and take their place. You have to get the
queen to kill the colony.
Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland
mtalt@hort.net
Editor: Gardening in Shade
-----------------------------------------------
Current Article: Wild, Wonderful Aroids Part 4 - Arisaema
http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening
------------------------------------------------
Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date
http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html
------------------------------------------------
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----------
From: karen swaine
I realized immediately that this was bound to be problematic, because
(altho
I didn't mention it) the crotch IS very very narrow, and that's what
creates
the "crease". So... I'm wondering, do I first "kill" these ants (with
what?)
and do I then perhaps use that old fashion stuff they used to fill
tree
cracks, holes with -- or, perhaps, even cement? Silicone? I know this
tree
is going to go -- who ever planted it never thought about anything...
it's
"under" 2 mature sugar maples which are only 4' apart (I'm serious)
on my
cousin's property. The 3 trunks all lean way out toward the south to
get
light. Eventually, the tree will fall over, or the trunks will crack
from
the strain...(I am not going to spend money cabling this tree!). But
I'd
like to keep it as long as possible -- it's such gorgeous color in
spring
and fall, and gives some shade early in the day in summer.
already took down its "mate" which was on the other side of the walk,
had 3
of 5 trunks left alive, all in 45?? angles from ground, and
wrap-around roots
were slowly strangling the tree. I took the entire thing down.
I planted a little Sourwood tree on that side... and on the side
where this
other maple (infested with the ants) lives, I have put in a (very
small)
Parrotia, figuring it will take up lots of space eventually. I hope.
I
hope I'm around to see it!!! haha.
karen, nj
To be honest, I *like* ants in the garden...they help aerate soil and
recycle debris of various sorts. Given the circumstances...tree in the
wrong place, struggling against overwhelming maples and soon (within 10
years) to be replaced by a Parrotia...I'd just leave the situation as is,
ants and all, 'twere it my tree.
Since you like the maple's color, you might like to try air layering on it,
and plant the offspring in a more suitable place. One of our Gardens
subscribers had good success with air layering Japanese maples...so it's a
doable project.
Barb in Southern Indiana Zone 5/6 dorsettb@kiva.net
Fortunately for man, the insect world is divided
against itself. Far more than half the insects
prey upon other insects. ~ Edwin Way Teale
Ants in trees in Oz mean no white ants, which probably means house is safe
yipee
Bob
B. Dorsett wrote:
Just wanted to relate a situation we had with carpenter ants in a
very old Salix (weeping willow). We didn't know how to deal with the
ants. The tree was going down-hill. We bought a granular product
called Advance Carpenter Ant Bait (Whitmire Micro-Gen), placed it
into a pet-proof trap (they sold the trap also) on the tree trunk in
the path of the ants. It worked. I have no connection to this
company. Linda in NW Ohio.
Thank you Marge for the useful information.
I planted a Parrotia on another part of the front "lawn" or what's le=
ft of
it. A very little Parrotia.... about 24" tall :o) so I probably won'=
t be
living here when it's mature... but so what, someone will enjoy it.
Anyway, bottom line, I don't think these are carpenter ants.
karen, nj
---- Original Message -----
=46rom: "Marge Talt"
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: ants living in tree!
> Well, Karen, current wisdom is that you should not fill holes in
> trees because it can simply trap moisture inside and encourage fung=
i
> to rot the tree.
> Those ants could simply be visiting a source of sweetness or they
> could, as has been mentioned, be living in what is already a hole
> inside the tree. In either case, the ants themselves aren't harmin=
g
> the tree. All the carpenter ants I've seen are very large, not tin=
y
f
> there is any softness at the location of this crotch join. If ther=
e
se
> (altho
> I didn't mention it) the crotch IS very very narrow, and that's wha=
t
> creates
> the "crease". So... I'm wondering, do I first "kill" these ants (wi=
th
> what?)
> and do I then perhaps use that old fashion stuff they used to fill
> tree
> cracks, holes with -- or, perhaps, even cement? Silicone? I know th=
is
> tree
> is going to go -- who ever planted it never thought about anything.=
...
> it's
> "under" 2 mature sugar maples which are only 4' apart (I'm serious)
> on my
> cousin's property. The 3 trunks all lean way out toward the south =
to
> get
> light. Eventually, the tree will fall over, or the trunks will cra=
ck
> from
> the strain...(I am not going to spend money cabling this tree!). B=
ut
> I'd
> like to keep it as long as possible -- it's such gorgeous color in
> spring
> and fall, and gives some shade early in the day in summer.
I
> already took down its "mate" which was on the other side of the wal=
k,
e.
I see your point. Last week I discovered lots of dead "ants" which had err,
lost their "wings" (duh, winged ants?) they were on my mom's carpet, under a
chairs, next to a table..., in various places. Lo and behold, D, who lived
in FLA long enuf to know, sees them and declares them to be termites. And
she was right!
lucky my mom rents and it's landlord's responsibility.
karen, nj
it,
> and plant the offspring in a more suitable place. One of our Gardens
> subscribers had good success with air layering Japanese maples...so it's
a
Well, Karen, actually ants do fly for a brief time when they are
mating and leaving to form a new colony. The males die.
Here's an article about this behavior:
http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/4DMG/Pests/flyant.htm
Here's a line drawing showing the difference between a winged ant and
a winged termite:
http://www.pest-control-supplies.com/ant-termite.htm
Personally, I wouldn't take an exterminator's word...they might say
termites when it was really ants just to get the job:-)
Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland
mtalt@hort.net
Editor: Gardening in Shade
-----------------------------------------------
Current Article: Wild, Wonderful Aroids Part 4 - Arisaema
http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening
------------------------------------------------
Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date
http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html
------------------------------------------------
All Suite101.com garden topics :
http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635
----------
> From: karen swaine
> I see your point. Last week I discovered lots of dead "ants" which
had err,
> lost their "wings" (duh, winged ants?) they were on my mom's
carpet, under a
> chairs, next to a table..., in various places. Lo and behold, D,
who lived
> in FLA long enuf to know, sees them and declares them to be
termites. And
You're welcome, Karen. Well, trees tend to grow faster than you'd
think, but it does take a few years for them to get mature:-)
Marge Talt, zone 7 Maryland
mtalt@hort.net
Editor: Gardening in Shade
-----------------------------------------------
Current Article: Wild, Wonderful Aroids Part 4 - Arisaema
http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/shade_gardening
------------------------------------------------
Complete Index of Articles by Category and Date
http://mtalt.hort.net/article-index.html
------------------------------------------------
All Suite101.com garden topics :
http://www.suite101.com/topics.cfm/635
----------
From: karen swaine
Thank you Marge for the useful information.
I planted a Parrotia on another part of the front "lawn" or what's
left of
it. A very little Parrotia.... about 24" tall :o) so I probably
won't be
living here when it's mature... but so what, someone will enjoy it.
Anyway, bottom line, I don't think these are carpenter ants.
karen, nj
