I am planting tomatillos in a "raised bed system" made from used tires. This
works well. However, in the "off season", ants move in to overwinter; they
use the shelter of the tire for dryness. I don't think I have a problem with
ants in the growing season, in that the frequent watering drives them away
for the summer months. I haven't noticed a difference in growth between
tires with, and without, ants. Ants have been definitely beneficial from a
slug control standpoint, in that "where the ants are, the slugs aren't."
Additionally, they bring in lots of organic material.
The very interesting thing I found last night is a peculiar defense
mechanism the ants employ: when their territory is disturbed they emit a
strong cloud of acetic(?) acid. Indeed, as I leaned close to the earth
surface, the concentration was so strong that my cheeks experienced a mild
stinging sensation. The cloud smells just like a strong acetic acid.
However, there may be other acids with a similar smell.... eg formic acid?
This defense mechanism would be very effective against racoons attempting to
root for grubs in an ant hill!! Similarily, it would be a great way to get
rid of earthworms that threatened to burrow through their colony. And also,
they could easily discourage root penetration simply by changing the soil
atmosphere pH.
Additionally, in terms of "ant control" this would suggest that the ant's
system is well adapted to a strongly "acidic atmosphere", and therefore,
that acid treatments (eg, vinegar) on ant hills would likely be relatively
ineffective. One can thus infer that an alkaline treatment would likely be
more effective. (eg, ammonia).
Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon?
Kevin Chisholm
I haven't smelled what you did, because I have few ants.
But adding an alkaline source doesn't do much for your soil for sure! Vinegar is something that disappears, while salt for instance renders the soil barren for generations.
I love these observations, though; it gives us others the chance to go see for ourselves (if we are blessed with real ant hills). I figure it was mostly formic acid.
Carol
yep, not many of us are willing to formicate in order to see what's going
on in our gardens. What? Before anyone gets up in a roar, "formicate"
means swarming with ants...via formic acid. Margaret L
used windex window cleaner( ammonia based ,w/ surfactant) kills ants quick
..Prolly a much weaker home made solution will work just as well/better.
Even jus soapy water drench will cause colony to evac a nest site.. castile
soap I like peppermint flavor! ants hate it- would start at low
concentration of 100 to 1 and work up if needed. Ive seen it recommended at
18 to 1, but think that's overkill.
bille
While ammonia is not at all an organic solution, it is probably far less
damaging that
so-called "Organic Pesticides."....
.....a spray of soapy water or Windex. Such a treatment could be given to the
stems of aphid laden roses, near foundation entry points, etc.
Kindest regards,
Kevin Chisholm
Kevin Chisholm wrote:
Definitely formic acid Kevin (Formes = an ant).
It seems to me _your_ ants at least are good partners in your little
ecosystem. I can certainly understand people who don't like to live with
fire ants, but so often you will get someone just trying to eliminate
ants on principle, which is really sad, as the richer the ecosystem in
most cases the healthier the garden.
Strangely, though I have little colonies here and there in my patch,
they really seem to be rare just where I live, though common enough in
other parts of the country and I have never seen them farm aphids in my
garden, even when I used to have plenty. of the little suckers. My ants
seem to be avery tiny species and I doubt they could cope with a slug (A
very tiny one maybe)
Cheers
Moira
--
Tony & Moira Ryan
Wainuiomata, New Zealand, SW Pacific. 12 hours ahead of Greenwich Time
Dear Carol
.....del...>
> But adding an alkaline source doesn't do much for your soil for
> sure! Vinegar is something that disappears, while salt for
> instance renders the soil barren for generations.
While vinegar will disappear, it is not likely to do much to get rid of
ants, in that they are quite well equipped to deal with a heavy release of
formic acid. Certainly, persistent alkalies would have a lasting effect (eg,
NaOH) but a strong ammonia solution may work quite well. While ammonia is
not at all an organic solution, it is probably far less damaging that
so-called "Organic Pesticides."
> I love these observations, though; it gives us others the chance
> to go see for ourselves (if we are blessed with real ant hills).
> I figure it was mostly formic acid.
If you want to mess up an ant big time, you can do so very easily: simply
lay a piece of paper on the ground as he is leaving the ant hill, and when
he traverses the paper, he lays down a "scent trail" to follow, to get back
home. All you have to do is turn the paper 45 degrees, and when he returns,
he follows the scent path to the "far edge of the paper", and then he gets
lost.
While the exercise as described above can be considered as amusing in some
circles, it does lead to a practical application: you can discourage ants
from going to a particular location simply by "blocking their roadway" with
a spray of soapy water or Windex. Such a treatment could be given to the
stems of aphid laden roses, near foundation entry points, etc.
Kindest regards,
Kevin Chisholm
I have a distantly related problem. I soaked an artichoke - or maybe
cardoon, I'm not sure which I have - in water and grapefruit-pip stuff the
other day to get rid of the ants, but didn't succeed in getting rid of the
light coating of blackfly between the leaves.
Of course it added some protein to my meal, but is there any way of getting
rid of these little things pre-meal?
ammonia bad stuff kills life in the soil i would not use it. it kills the
life we organic growers need to grow food. when they say feed the soil they
mean to me feed the soil life . try
http://rinconvitova.com/dietrick_papers.htm#Argentine%20Ants%20Must%20Be%20S
uppressed
set the bait away from what u are trying to save as it will draw ants from
everywhere. I will not use any stinking non organic ammonia and lose my
organicness I will live with the ants thank you until I find a organic way.
that's the whole idea about organic putting our heads together and finding a
organic way to our problems.
when I was younger I use to prune the trees and put tape around them and put
tangle foot on the tape and the ants would be stopped for a while . if you
can stop the ants the benificials will take over and kill what the ants were
herding. u can use plan sugar water to draw them away . u can dug up their
homes over and over again to keep them busy making new homes too busy to
heard honeydew makers . there a lots of thing i would try before i lose my
organicnesss. we fight the chemical and GMO drift and should not so easy
give up our ways. i think a lot of folks panic and reach for the poisons
and don't give organic a chance. this is the organic list isn't it/??
Check out an organic growers homepage
http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html
W. While ammonia is
not at all an organic solution, it is probably far less damaging that
so-called "Organic Pesticides."
Well, I didn't mean that vinegar would help get rid of ants either. I guess if one is desperate boiling water is the only organic solution.
Carol
There's organic ammonia in urine, which works just as well.
I always thought ants aeriated and turned the soil. They are only a pest
when they are in your crackers. B
Margaret Lauterbach wrote:
> yep, not many of us are willing to formicate in order to see what's going
> on in our gardens. What? Before anyone gets up in a roar, "formicate"
> means swarming with ants...via formic acid. Margaret L
very good. I will have to remember that one:>)
--
Jim allAn Several new photos have been added to different
Zone 5 albums.
New York U.S.A. 200+ miles NW. of New York city
Click or copy/paste to see my garden.
Yay, hurray!! An ally! They call them "potato bugs" in the Pacific
Northwest, and I've been more tempted to call them the "Who Me?" bugs.
Margaret L
Hello everyone,
I have a couple of questions.
1. Although the instructions for Lobelia say that it can take full sun, my
Lobelia seems to be doing well in partial shade, but awful in direct sun. I
live in No. California, and we've been having pretty hot weather lately. I'm
watering regularly, but.... Any thoughts?
2. When the workmen came to build my fence a couple of weeks ago, they
destroyed my compost pile (which was doing really well!). Since it's filled
with a bunch of junk now, I'm thinking of getting the next round off the
ground anyway, to give me more space for growing. How do those
off-the-ground bins that you turn work? Are they good? I've seen various ads
in Organic Gardening Magazine (one maker is CompostTumbler -- you turn the
handle each day and in two weeks you have finished compost, or so they say).
Thanks!
Deborah
> I always thought ants aeriated and turned the soil. They are only a pest
> when they are in your crackers. B
That's true. Ants are not the demons, with the exception of Fire Ants, that
most people think. Many people believe that ants "farm" aphids, but when
that was looked into the entomologists found that the ants take the aphids
back to their nest to feed to their young. While ants are not totally good,
most of the time they get blamed for doing stuff they did not do, just like
the poor little pillbugs, sowbugs, wood lice, or what ever you may call
those Isopods, simply because they are adventitious and will take advantage
of something someone else did.
Kimm
Ants go into my greenhouse and take whiteflies off the yellow sticky papers
and haul them off. The papers actually are sprayed with cooking oil spray
though, which catches the flies and not the ants. (Whiteflies are already
buttered and ready to go) B
> From personal experience, I can tell you about the compost tumbler. Save
your
> money. Unless you are making compost in very small batches, say a bushel
or
> two, building a 3x3 or 4x4 foot double bin is the best way to go. The
tumbler
> is a lot of work. The mixings must have the exact ratio of carbons to
> nitrogens (browns to greens) and amount of water, and must be tumbled
every
> day in order to get a finished product in 2 weeks. With a double bin,
open
> on the top and front, you can pile a lot of organic material in one side,
> water it down, and once every week or two, fork the mass over to the bin
on
> the other side. Instant gratification doesn't cut it in compost as well
as
> nature.
Thanks for the warning. Since I'd prefer to buy a double bin if there's a
good one available (I'm not a builder), what do you think of the Compost
Twin (also advertised in OG Mag.)? It says that it's "the only composter
with two 10-bushel capacity bins in one machine".
I wasn't looking for instant gratification, by the way -- just a ready-made
bin(s) to get my compost off the ground. :-)
Deborah
Mary Ann,
> I'm not familiar with the bin you are talking about, but I was under the
> impression it was a good thing (ala Martha) to have your compost on the
> ground, so the worms can make their way up into it when it is
> ready.
Excellent point. Right now my soil has LOTS of earthworms, so maybe it's
best to work with the good thing that you have.
Thanks for much for your suggestions. I guess it's worth it to let it all
happen in the soil!
Deborah
In a message dated 6/15/01 2:31:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gaidheal@DISTANTOAKS.COM writes:
<< I've seen various ads
in Organic Gardening Magazine (one maker is CompostTumbler -- you turn the
handle each day and in two weeks you have finished compost, or so they say).
From personal experience, I can tell you about the compost tumbler. Save your
money. Unless you are making compost in very small batches, say a bushel or
two, building a 3x3 or 4x4 foot double bin is the best way to go. The tumbler
is a lot of work. The mixings must have the exact ratio of carbons to
nitrogens (browns to greens) and amount of water, and must be tumbled every
day in order to get a finished product in 2 weeks. With a double bin, open
on the top and front, you can pile a lot of organic material in one side,
water it down, and once every week or two, fork the mass over to the bin on
the other side. Instant gratification doesn't cut it in compost as well as
nature.
Mary Ann
In a message dated 6/15/01 3:01:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
gaidheal@DISTANTOAKS.COM writes:
<< Thanks for the warning. Since I'd prefer to buy a double bin if there's a
good one available (I'm not a builder), what do you think of the Compost
Twin (also advertised in OG Mag.)? It says that it's "the only composter
with two 10-bushel capacity bins in one machine".
I wasn't looking for instant gratification, by the way -- just a ready-made
bin(s) to get my compost off the ground. :-) >>
I'm not familiar with the bin you are talking about, but I was under the
impression it was a good thing (ala Martha) to have your compost on the
ground, so the worms can make their way up into it when it is ready. I found
very few worms in my compost pile last year, then I found out why. I had two
very hungry short-tailed shrews, who must have thought they were in
shrew-heaven when they found all those tasty worms in one place. They ate
almost all. By the way, lots of places give away for free wooden shipping
pallets. If you have a way to get them home, they can be wired together to
make a pretty adequate compost bin or two.
Mary Ann
You can see the whole big spectrum of composter choices and prices at
www.composters.com
Hard to beat simple mesh, fence or pallets, for price to efficiency ratio,
in my opinion.
One thing to remember about tumblers is you really shouldn't fill them more
than about 3/4 full, so a ten bushel space should only take about 7 and a
half bushels of material, to leave room for it to, well, tumble, eh?
So, a tumbler holding 20 bushels actually can only run 15 bushels, or about
16 cubic feet of material. A four foot cube holds 64 cubic feet of material,
four times as much, at a fourth of the cost.
Tumblers are a gimmick, they can work but are not very cost effective for
the amount of material they give you.
Give me a cheapie big pile and some rebar anytime.
Good composting,
Frank Teuton
side,
ready-made
Hi Carol,
> If I were you, I would pick the junk out! The compost heap could
> also just continue until next year, and then you could pick the
> junk out. Concrete is no good for compost though, and you haven't
> specified the junk. Nails and stuff won't hurt.
I decided to do a little raking in that area, to see if I could find my
compost. What seems to have happened is that the top layer, consisting of
what the workmen dumped on top, is really muddy (we have adobe soil -- and
this is the unconditioned, unamended stuff). I couldn't find the beautiful,
crumbly dark brown stuff. I probably need to dig a lot deeper and just get
rid of most of the top layer. I'll let you know if and when I find it!
> I wouldn't bother with off-the-ground stuff. You need to load
> your compost materials on the ground so that the worms etc. can
> get to it and make it into soil or near-soil.
I've come to that conclusion.
Thanks!
Deborah
Carol,
> But why do you want to get the compost off the ground? Do you
> find it unsightly and want to hide it, or what?
I just wanted to make more room for growing (I don't have a big yard, and
the compost was taking up a chunk of it). But I can see that it needs to be
on the ground. I just need to make an enclosure, so that it doesn't spread
too far (like it's been doing). Actually, I like the way it looks -- and
especially the way it feels and smells! :-)
By the way, my friend told me not to touch it with my bare hands, as there's
lots of bacteria in it. But that sounded strange to me. Good rich soil
should be touched, shouldn't it?
Deborah
> Hello everyone,
If I were you, I would pick the junk out! The compost heap could also just continue until next year, and then you could pick the junk out. Concrete is no good for compost though, and you haven't specified the junk. Nails and stuff won't hurt.
I wouldn't bother with off-the-ground stuff. You need to load your compost materials on the ground so that the worms etc. can get to it and make it into soil or near-soil.
My two bits I know! Carol
> I wasn't looking for instant gratification, by the way -- just a ready-made
> bin(s) to get my compost off the ground. :-)
> Deborah
But why do you want to get the compost off the ground? Do you find it unsightly and want to hide it, or what?
Carol
re: touching compost
When I work with students and compost (as a Master Gardener), we use those light
plastic gloves. For me, it's more a liability issue than any real health
concern. I handle compost bare-handed all the time. But then again I don't
have a Mother that is going to sue the school system if I get a cold the
following day or week. I also know to wash my hands before eating as a
precaution.
JMHO,
Carol, VA
Deborah said;
> By the way, my friend told me not to touch it with my bare hands, as
there's
> lots of bacteria in it. But that sounded strange to me. Good rich soil
> should be touched, shouldn't it?
This person has a paranoia. There are bacteria all around and in us and
without bacteria we would not be able to digest the food we eat and would be
buried in the trash we toss out. It's kind of like the E-Coli thing, of the
thousand strains perhaps 8 are pathogenic while most all of the others are
present in your digestive tract all the time. Are there pathogenic bacteria
in your compost pile? Maybe, possibly, probably. Should you never touch it?
That depends on whether you have cuts on your skin and how good your immune
system is. When we teach Disease Transmission classes we point out that
pathogens need 4 things to cause a problem, there is a pathogen present,
there is enough of the pathogen to cause a problem, there is a route of
entry, and there is a depressed immune system. You are probably exposed to
more pathogens whenever you shake hands with someone than when you play in
your compost pile. Maybe you should tell your friend to not watch so much
TV.
Kimm
Your friend has a hygienic hysteria I'd say. Not that I touch mine - just never thought to. I use a fork every March to bring it to its new location (a raised bed). In March it's very wet, the weather is very cold and I don't go messing around with soil much! Later in summer, when it is dry, what's left over, I don't mind at all.
Carol
good ideas, thanks
Kevin Chisholm wrote:
