Absolutely. First I "paint" them inside and out with Behr's or Thompson's
waterproofing (I've also used Varathane, but it's more expensive), then line
them with plastic andpunch some holes in the bottom. I usually use Super
Soil and mix some compost into it in the bottom half of the container, and
prefer the straight "sterile" mix on top because I have a habit of adding
seeds to the baskets and containers, and don't have to worry about damping
off disease (I'm not able to make my own good compost, I have to buyit).
Well, that's how the mesclun mix gets started in there. I've had these
baskets last more than 2 seasons this way. Also wine crates from liquor
stores. Maybe now that my son Daniel has passed his last test for his MCSE
certification and gets back from Taiwan, He'll scan and post some pictures
of these on my website. I hope, I hope. These are great for your patio
tables or taking to a friend who cooks, filled with differet herbs and
flowers for companionate, oops, companion planting and beauty. Amy of M.G.
-
Hmmm, would it? Let's have a vote. BTW I also paint them with house paint if
I want color on them.
> Rather than using the Berh's or Thompson's waterproofing, what would you
think
Dear Amy
Amy wrote:
> Absolutely. First I "paint" them inside and out with Behr's or Thompson's
> waterproofing (I've also used Varathane, but it's more expensive), then line
> them with plastic andpunch some holes in the bottom.
Rather than using the Berh's or Thompson's waterproofing, what would you think
about the following procedure:1: Put the baskets in the oven at about 200
degrees F for about 2 hours, to "kiln dry" them.
2: While still hot from the oven, "paint" them with melted parrafin wax.
Wouldn't the parrafin soak into the dry wood, and give you excellent rot
protection?
Kevin
why use wicker baskets at all?
NTL, I agree that it seems rather ironic to grow things, for the most part
organically and then use something potentially harmful.
However, I'm not sure I believe the "carcinogenity" re: paraffin. There
are many NATURAL things that are toxic too...and cause cancer.
the risk of paraffin is probably so low as to be negligable and "x"ed out
by the anti-oxidants we get from eating organic foods, and somehow I doubt
that the plants would absorb the parrafin. Part of the point of paraffin
is that it keeps things from leaking through. The wax, in this instance
isn't being burned, which causes a different chemical breakdown.
I'm far more concerned about the use of chemical pesticides and fertilizers
by others out there.
And I'm not so sure that using bees wax is all that environmentally sound.
We have to disturb bee populations to get it. And we all know the bee
populations are threatened.
> I'm far more concerned about the use of chemical pesticides and fertilizers
> by others out there.
Me too, but, dont bust the balls of the beeswax market....
do you eat honey?
> And I'm not so sure that using bees wax is all that environmentally sound.
> We have to disturb bee populations to get it.
Bees are farmed, I doubt much beeswax is wildcrafted.......... Bees in
California, in the last decade ,have seen something like a 90%
decline....due to a mite. I believe populations are rising, but for a
time, was a crisis.
diego bill
Let me understand something here. You are growing food organically in
order to reduce or eliminate the use of toxic pesticides and
fertilizers. Yet, the extremely toxic chemicals used to make paints and
seal out water from wood/wicker are sometimes recycled into misnamed
inert ingredients in pesticides and fertilizers. These chemical
residues can leach into the soil and may possibly be taken up by the
crops. So what are you proving?
Why not coat the wicker basket with bees wax and go natural? Paraffin
is made from petroleum hydrocarbons, as are paints and water repellents.
Bunny Snow
> I'm far more concerned about the use of chemical pesticides and fertilizers
> by others out there.
> Me too, but, dont bust the balls of the beeswax market....
> do you eat honey?
Ya....occassionally. But I'm not big on sweets.
> And I'm not so sure that using bees wax is all that environmentally sound.
> We have to disturb bee populations to get it.
> Bees are farmed, I doubt much beeswax is wildcrafted.......... Bees in
Hey, we are still disturbing them :) How would you feel if someone took
your wax?
It's also quite expensive. I went to the site that Bunny posted...the
concept of making candle wax from vegetable oil is interesting...I hope
they can get the process down.
> California, in the last decade ,have seen something like a 90%
> decline....due to a mite. I believe populations are rising, but for a
> time, was a crisis.
Last year I saw hardly any bees, but this year I've seen quite a few
happily pollinating away, then again I have a very bee-friendly garden.
And it wasn't just the mites, it's also the pesticides. It is a combination
of the two.
In fact I was watching a bee yesterday pollinating one of my lily flowers,
and it was so covered with pollen it kept slipping on the petals into the
flower. greedy little bee. :)
> diego bill
Organically Yours,
Joy Williams
http://www.dancinghummingbird.com/joyw/garden699
Tantrika wrote:
> Hey, we are still disturbing them :) How would you feel if someone took
> your wax?
....Ok in the same vein,,,,. how does Mr/Mrs/Ms/It Tomatoe Plant feel
when you pick its fruit???
:^>
diego bill
> The report says: ''Chlorinated paraffins have low volatility. When heated to
> decomposition, they emit toxic fumes of hydrochloric acid and other
chlorinated
> compounds.''
but is this the same kind of paraffin???
Is household paraffin the same as chlorinated paraffin? These reports
sound like industrial grade paraffin. Is there more than one kind of
paraffin?
It doesn't indicate that it's chlorinated paraffin on my box. only that it
has 9 ppm tocopherals as a stabilizer.
I'm not sure what tocopherals are.
huh? I don't understand this passage.
I get information from all over the place.... never even heard of ACSH.
Though I used to work for the Environmental Defense Fund.
Pure paraffin wax may possess some carcinogenic properties. These
properties are largely believed to be due to polycyclic aromatic
hydrocarbons. Many scientists believe that there is no safe level for
carcinogens. Work around molten paraffin, especially if it is
overheated is uncomfortable and nauseating.
There is an interesting paper online entitled: Development of Vegetable
Lipid-Based Candles
Bernard Y. Tao, Project Leader
He writes: ''...Lower quality paraffin contains aromatic compounds which
are released when candles are burned and can be detrimental to health,
especially in enclosed areas.. Although paraffin candles have a slower
combustion rate [than vegetable oil candles], they release carcinogens
as they burn.''
Now, I presume you are not painting wicker baskets or other things for a
living, but you may be interested to know that painters are among
several occupations that have an increased risk of cancer due to the
chemicals to which they are exposed, according to research from the
International Agency for Research on Cancer. See Appendix A at:
paint is a hazardous waste. You may want your loved ones to eat, drink,
or breathe it. But you will if it is used or discarded, as it goes into
the groundwater --your tapwater.
Growing organically is healthy. Why destroy it with toxic chemicals to
coat wicker baskets? I repeat, why not use bees wax and go natural?
Bunny Snow
Amy wrote:
> Hmmm, would it? Let's have a vote.
Rather than a vote, why not see if someone would be interested in trying it, and
reporting back with first hand fact, rather than fuzzy conflicting opinions?
I would suggest the following:
1: Take three pieces of basket wicker, about 2" long.
2: Dry one in the oven, and then dip it in the wax pool from a burning candle.
3: Dip one in Tompson's Water Seal.
4:Tie them all together loosely, and put them in a compost pile for 3 weeks.
4: Excavate them, and see if the waxed stick is "good as new" and the untreated
stick has started to rot. Compare to the Thomson's Water Sealed stick.
> BTW I also paint them with house paint if
> I want color on them.
You can use crayons as a source of color for coloring wax. OR, contact a Candle
Makers Supply House, for various dyes used by candlemakers.
Kindest regards,
Kevin
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:19:08 -0500
From: Bunny Snow
Let me understand something here. You are growing food organically in
order to reduce or eliminate the use of toxic pesticides and
fertilizers. Yet, the extremely toxic chemicals used to make paints and
seal out water from wood/wicker are sometimes recycled into misnamed
inert ingredients in pesticides and fertilizers. These chemical
residues can leach into the soil and may possibly be taken up by the
crops. So what are you proving?
Thanks for saying pretty much what I was planning to post myself. I won't
even walk down the aisle of a store selling those products without wearing
my respirator...trying to use them would put me in the hosptial.
Us chemically sensitive people are the canaries for the rest of you! If
you're dedicated to organically gardening in your heart, and not just in
bits and pieces, use people like me and Bunny as your indicator humans.
Why not coat the wicker basket with bees wax and go natural? Paraffin
is made from petroleum hydrocarbons, as are paints and water repellents.
Paraffin is a much much better product than the sealers. I thought Kevin's
idea was pretty good. The issue of course is, will it work? I really like
Amy's idea of planting in baskets.
I can use paraffin in limited quantities without getting ill...I use
leftover candle stubs to rub on my drawers and windows to prevent
sticking. But I can't use them as candles. I'm not even talking about
scented candles, which will send me into a tailspin if I just walk by them
in the store, unlit, but pure parafin will make me very sick when burning.
I had to leave religious services because of them once (went into an asthma
attack before the services even started).
So if burning paraffin makes me ill, there must be something there. I
react badly to petro-chemicals in general. I do not react at all to
burning beeswax candles. This doesn't mean coating a planter with paraffin
would be so bad...I believe it would techically be organic, or that's my
guess since dormant oil (which I refuse to use) is also from petroleum and
is okay for organic gardening. To me that just means they're relatively
benign, not that they're 100% okay.
Why not use beeswax for coating a planter? Well, it's pretty expensive for
one. Though maybe not if you get it in bulk and not shaped into candles.
Also, we don't know yet if paraffin works for the planters and even if it
does, it doesn't mean beeswax will work; they need to be tested separately.
There are, unfortunately, some things for which beeswax is not a substitute
for paraffin (if anyone can find me a safe candle that will burn for 25
hours (memorial) I'd be forever greatful...I have to use it
outside...beeswax will not work).
My two cents...
Cyndi
_______________________________________________________________________________
Oakland, California Zone 9 USDA; Zone 16 Sunset Western Garden Guide
Chemically sensitive/disabled - Organic Gardening only by choice and neccessity
_______________________________________________________________________________
"There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman
something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com
http://www.consultclarity.com/
_________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/
My Mother and Grandmother used DDT, also. They didn't know what is known
now! I don't use Vaseline, any longer. And, grandmother may not have
intentionally put paint or Thompson's water seal or paraffin into her
preserves, but that does not mean that it didn't get there.
Since I was poisoned by pesticides, I've found (as have other victims of
chemical poisoning), that the misnamed inert ingredients in pesticides are in
a lot of other products, as well. Not everything causes cancer, some
chemicals damage the immune system, damage the nervous system (including short
term memory loss), and a whole slew of other illnesses, including multiple
sclerosis.
I'm a strong supporter in prevention. The laws and regulations in the United
States, and presumably, in other countries as well, do NOT protect consumers
and increasingly, regulations do not protect workers in plants or people
having the misfortune to live where chemical plants, landfills, incinerators
have moved into the neighborhood. If we want to protect our families and our
backyards all over the planet from pollution, we need to start altering what
we buy.
I buy organically grown food and cotton sheets. Not only because it has less
chemicals on it than conventionally grown agriculture, but also because I want
to create a market so that more farmers will grow by the organic method.
Likewise, I am using detergents made with vegetable oils rather than
hydrocarbons. What goes down the drain or ends up in landfills or
incinerators, comes back to my plate. Chemicals dumped down the drain end up
in sewage treatment plants; the resulting sludge is often composted and sold
as a beneficial use to farmers and households as a soil enhancer or
fertilizer. Increasingly, sewage sludge (a.k.a. biosolids) are finding their
way into potting soil. Hazardous chemicals that some industries recycle, are
recycled into fertilizer.
This is our children's future we are poisoning with these unnecessary
purchases. If our children are to inherit a healthy planet, we must change the
way we view and purchase things. Consumers have poisoned the planet because
of what we purchase in our homes and businesses. We must turn this around.
So, I repeat, what's wrong with coating wicker baskets with bees wax????
Bunny
Kevin Chisholm wrote:
Hi you wicker people,
I use wicker and other sorts of baskets for container plantings, and I do
the following:
--line the basket with a couple layers of burlap and possibly line around
the bottom with plastic (depending on how large the basket/planter is and
what kinds of plants will be grown in it and whether I like the basket
enough to keep it for next year).
--don't line the basket, don't care about rot, compost the remains at the
end of the season.
There you go, no wax, no worries. :-) Wicker baskets make fabulouly
beautiful containers for all sorts of plants (as do funky old wooden
boxes and metal containers...but I digress). Especially beautiful in
wicker baskets are all sorts of herbs, and any flowering plants with small
and delicate-looking or old-fashioned flowers.
Diane Ridout, Instructor, ACP.............................................
Kwantlen University College, "Talk
12666-72 Avenue doesn't
Surrey, BC, Canada V3W 2M8 cook rice," they say.
Tel: (604) 599-2964 Voice mail 9837.......................................
Dear Bunny
Bunny Snow wrote:
....del...
> Why not coat the wicker basket with bees wax and go natural? Paraffin
> is made from petroleum hydrocarbons, as are paints and water repellents.
Parrafin is the same wax that your Grandmother used to seal her preserves.
Vaseline is a hydrocarbon that is known for its many natural uses. Merely
because it is a hydrocarbon product des not mean it is toxic. Note that
grandma did not put paint or Thompson's water seal in her preserves.
Kevin
Tantrika wrote:
> why use wicker baskets at all?
It's a matter of choice. I'm just saying that if you choose to use wicker, why
not ''treat'' them with non-toxic, organically produced bees-wax?
Yes! I agree. And, some natural things cause cancer. But, if you would like a
list of manmade (as well as some natural) chemicals that cause cancer in
humans, as well as other animals?
See:
Notice that among the chemicals listed there are: Chlorinated Paraffins (C 12 ,
60% Chlorine) which is reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen,
because there is sufficient evidence for the carcinogenicity of chorinated
paraffins in laboratory animals. See:
Most chemicals are tested on laboratory animals instead of human fetuses.
''Chlorinated paraffins
caused increased incidences of hepatocellular neoplasms in male and female
rats, adenomas of the kidney tubular cells in male rats, and follicular cell
adenomas of the thyroid gland in female rats.
Mononuclear cell leukemia in male rats may have been related to administration
of chlorinated paraffins. In male and female mice, chlorinated paraffins caused
increased incidences of hepatocellular
neoplasms. Female mice administered chlorinated paraffins also showed increased
incidences of adenomas of thyroid gland follicular cells (NTP 308, 1986).''
The Eighth Report on Carcinogens goes on to say, ''No data were available to
evaluate the carcinogenicity of chlorinated paraffins in humans.'' However,
that does not mean that humans are safe from chlorinated paraffins. It means
that studies have not been completed or sufficiently published.
Whether or not chlorinated paraffins are used to seal food containers, I know
not. However, the report cites sealants and says:
''Chlorinated paraffins are used primarily as extreme pressure lubricant
additives (50% of the chlorinated paraffins produced). They are also used as
flame retardants for plastics including vinyl flooring, carpet backing, and
wire and cable coatings (20%). Chlorinated paraffins are also used as
plasticizers in rubber (12%), paints (9%), adhesives (4%), and caulks and
sealants (2%) (SRI, 1983).
The remaining 4% of production is exported or used as a plasticizer in inks,
paper and textile coatings, and flexible poly(vinyl chloride) (SRI, 1983; SRI
1985).''
Also: ''The primary route of potential human exposure is by INGESTION, both
directly and through manual contamination of foodstuffs (Campbell and
McConnell, 1980). Chlorinated paraffins have been isolated from human liver (up
to 1.5 ppm) and adipose tissue (NTP 308, 1986).'' (I emphasized by placing
ingestion in capital letters. Ingestion means: suck, swallow, eat, drink.)
The report says: ''Chlorinated paraffins have low volatility. When heated to
decomposition, they emit toxic fumes of hydrochloric acid and other chlorinated
compounds.''
> I'm far more concerned about the use of chemical pesticides and fertilizers
> by others out there.
> And I'm not so sure that using bees wax is all that ''environmentally
> sound''.
''Environmentally sound''? For whom do you work? And, do you receive your
information from the American Council for Science and Health?
> We have to disturb bee populations to get it. And we all know the bee
> populations are threatened.
Agreed. Bees are being threatened with a variety of pesticides. Plus, some
people disturb bees just to get their honey.
Thanks for the discussion.
~Bunny
Has anyone tried old fashioned shellac (as in, made from the Lac insect) on
the baskets? I use natural wicker baskets for grape storage as the
excellent air circulation through the baskets improves the storage life of
the clusters. I wash them in the summer and leave them in the sun to bleach
and sterilize.
-Lon Rombough
Grapes, unusual fruits, writing, more, at http://www.hevanet.com/lonrom
----------
Tantrika wrote:
I don't know. But I personally would be very careful until I find out! Right now,
I don't have time to research paraffin online. Perhaps, someone else out there
has more information???
> It doesn't indicate that it's chlorinated paraffin on my box. only that it
> has 9 ppm tocopherals as a stabilizer.
tocopherols are in vitamin E
''Environmentally sound'' is a term constantly used by people promoting a chemical
agenda. In the area where I live, it's the oil and petrochemical industry, but
also the agricultural community. ''Sound" is the word that makes my ears and
eyebrows perk up.
ACSH was founded by Elizabeth Whelan and receives hundreds of thousands of dollars
from various industries under attack by potential government regulations,
health-related studies, global warming studies, attacks on fluoride, and recently
endocrine disrupting chemicals. They use their team of scientists to twist
published peer-reviewed studies to say things in public that the original
scientists did not write. I don't know if you've you OUR STOLEN FUTURE by Theo
Colborn, John Peterson Myers, and Diane Dumonski. But, ACSH attacked their book
and the studies and scientists within. They are now attacking endocrine (hormone)
disrupting pesticides and other such chemicals, claiming they are perfectly safe.
The mean of the game for ACSH is disinformation to keep the public confused,
controlled, and ignorant!
See
http://www.acsh.org/publications/index.html
Bunny
They are sold as gift baskets of herbs and flowers, or for patio table
decor.
And I suppose they don't even need to be coated, I just figgered the base
would last longer for the buyer that way. Amy of
I like the shellac Amy...it is buggy.... and you could promote it
(kinda)
""""look folks ,,no evil waterproofong!!! just bug goo waterproofs these
lovely baskets""""
Hmm, no that wont work....
diego bill
Amy wrote:
Lon,
I didn't know that shellac came from an insect. But since you enlightened me, I
learned that it comes from the Coccus lacca, a scale insect that feeds on certain
trees in India and southern Asia. After feeding, the insect produces through its
pores a gummy substance which hardens into a protective covering called lac. This
lac is collected and then it is crushed, washed and dried. After further treatment,
it is skillfully drawn into thin sheets of finished shellac.
http://www.shellac.org/shellac.html
Fascinating!!!
I'll try spreading this on wicker baskets and see how it works. Thanks.
Bunny
____________________________________________________
Lon J. Rombough wrote:
I use my wicker baskets all the time out of the weather. I simply place a
plastic container, like a Cool Whip container, inside the basket to protect
the bottom from excess water. One could put a few small rocks or marbles in
the plastic container to raise the elevation of the potted plant in order
that it not sit in the water. ~Bunny
__________________________________________________________
Amy wrote:
Bunny Snow wrote:
Providing that it is aesthetically and functionally appropriate, wicker can indeed
be a superior choice, simply because it is a renewable resource, with very low
impact on the environment in processing or manufacture. The use of bees wax is a
waste of money, in that beeswax is far more expensive than parrafin. It would be
nice if one did not have to put anything on the wicker for preservation, but as far
as I can see, paraffin has a far lower environmental impact than any other
practical alternative.
> ...del.... There
> are many NATURAL things that are toxic too...and cause cancer.
> Yes! I agree. And, some natural things cause cancer.
It is not the fact that they are "natural" or "manmade" that is important. The
chemical itself is what does the damage, or the good. For example, arsenic is a
natural product, while Viagra is a man made product.
> But, if you would like a
> list of manmade (as well as some natural) chemicals that cause cancer in
> humans, as well as other animals?
> See:
I looked on this list, and paraffin WAS NOT LISTED AS CARCINOGENIC!! Why do you
suggest it is carcinogenic when it is not even on a list that you recommend??
This is totally misleading and absolutely irrelevant to the question at hand. We
are talking simple paraffin, and NOT chlorinated paraffin. Nobody here ever
suggested that we coat our wicker baskets with chlorinated paraffin. To suggest
that simple paraffin is carcinogenic because chlorinated paraffins are carcinogenic
is about as sensible as saying that hydrogen is acidic because HCl is acidic. Or
that NaCl is poisonous because it contains chlorine, and we all know what a bad
chemical chlorine is, now don't we??
Considering the uses that you list, there is no apparent reason why Grandma would
want to use chlorinated paraffins to seal her jars of strawberry jam.
> However, the report cites sealants and says:
> ''Chlorinated paraffins are used primarily as extreme pressure lubricant
> additives (50% of the chlorinated paraffins produced).
These are gearbox and rear end lubricants. This function was previously performed
with whale oil. This man-made chemical is indirectly helping to reduce the pressure
on the whale population.
None of those uses are anywheres close to a food situation.
It is highly unlikely that anyone is going to ingest a paraffin coated wicker
basket. Far more dangerous would be various chocolate and foodstuff products where
paraffin is used as an additive to control melting points.
If I decompose sodium chloride, the chlorine can kill me. If I set fire to wood,
and inhale the toxic fumes, they can kill me dead. I could quickly suffocate, or I
could get carbon monoxide poisoning, but if I lived through all that, I could then
die of cancer from the PAH's. But who is remotely suggesting putting chlorinated
paraffins on wicker baskets and then decomposing them??? I certainly didn't.
It is very important to focus the discussion on the "chemical" of concern: simple
paraffin, and not chlorinated paraffins.
Kevin Chisholm
Hi Kevin and all,
I don't know if we are talking about two different types of paraffin or not
and I hope we are, but I think since we are using a written for of
communication without the benefit of voice inflection, facial expression and
body language; we sometimes come across a little harshly or appear to put
down someone when trying to refute the ideas or opinions they have expressed.
We must take special care in how we argue our points so as not to needlessly
offend each other especially on this wonderful list---after all it's only
July.LOL In taking my own advice I hope I have not offended anyone.
Bonnie C. Mt. zone 5 Ut. USA
Who hopes hat it was just my over sensitivity to words absent their people(a
social worker too long, maybe?)
Oh, yeah, they'll want to eat those tomatoes tumbling over the side onto the
buggoo. BG
I line them with plastic, punch a couple of drainage holes in the bottom,
fill with soil and plants and off they grow, and yes, they are outside
baskets, being as they have plants that need full sun in them. 8 )
> I use my wicker baskets all the time out of the weather. I simply place a
> plastic container, like a Cool Whip container, inside the basket to protect
> the bottom from excess water. One could put a few small rocks or marbles
in
Bunny wrote:
> Many scientists believe that there is no safe level for
> carcinogens.
I don't know which scientists you're referring to, but they would be wrong.
We are exposed to small doses of many known carcinogens every day, and have
been since long before the industrial age. The industrial age has certainly
accelerated the number and volume of carcinogens we are exposed to, so we
have an increase in cancer. But just because something has been shown to
cause cancer at high doses doesn't mean it is always harmful at any level.
As with many things, "the dose is the poison". For example there are many
trace minerals which we couldn't live without in tiny amounts, yet if we
ingested too much of them they would kill us. Enough of a harmful bacteria
concentrates in our bodies and we can become very ill, yet when we try to
eliminate the bacteria entirely, we have no immunity to it and can get even
sicker or die.
Our bodies evolved to deal with certain levels of substances we have deemed
"harmful" and have no problems with it. It's only when the levels exceed
what we are used to, in a short time and by a large factor (as is happening
in the 20th century), that problems occur. We need to be concerned about
the real killers here, and not go overboard in trying to eliminate every
"impure" thing that exists in the environment. To my knowledge, the Amish
have a lower incidence of cancer than the general population, and they are
still burning kerosene lamps whose fuel is distilled from pure paraffin.
I'm willing to take the "risk", personally, that my body would not be harmed
by eating plants grown in a basket coated with food grade paraffin.
--Lee
***********************************
Lee A. Flier
lflier@mindspring.com
Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia
http://lflier.home.mindspring.com
