Could I please ask for an opinion here. Most of you know about the wooden
privacy fence that runs 200 feet south to north along the border of my best
garden bed. The fence is made of the old type of pressure treated wood (not
that the new type sounds any better!) When I saw it going up I scrabbled to
put a plastic landscape border 20 inches deep and three inches high between
the fence and my plots before rain hit and washed all the arsenic into my
beds. I also dug a small ditch to channel the water away and down the hill
from my garden beds. I planted shrubs along the edge nearest the fence and
keep that mulched heavily to catch any runoff that might find its way into
my beds. But I still don't use those beds anymore for food. Weeds and spent
flowers pulled out of it stay in it as mulch. The neighbor who did it is
long gone and the new neighbor is *very* elderly with lots of health
problems. The fence will stay until it rots now. Its been up for 3 years
now.
I am wondering if perhaps maybe I could use the bed (which is 10 feet
wide with a path going down the center of it and 200 feet long) for growing
dwarf apple trees. Would you do it?
Laura
Mary Ann, do you know where I could have this testing done and how much it
would cost?
When I talk about being on a tight budget I mean one where every ratted
penny counts... where I'm considering using a camping solar shower instead
of the hot water heater (suggested in the More With Less book)... for the
willing family members. The Tightwad Gazette (now in book form) is falling
apart its been read so much. Sean wants to go to college a term early and
we'll have two in college then so I don't see extra money anytime soon.
Scholarships only go so far we've found. Books and fees still hit us hard.
We won't be buying land for quite a while.
Ok, talking about it reminds me to go get working (I am fighting a cold and
am late getting stuff done). Leaf gathering in this beautiful weather
today. It sure beats driving 14 hours like we did yesterday!
Laura
on,
In a message dated 1/3/06 10:26:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
laurabrownmckenzie@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:
<< The neighbor who did it is
long gone and the new neighbor is *very* elderly with lots of health
problems. The fence will stay until it rots now. Its been up for 3 years
now. >>
Have you had the soil near the fence tested for arsenic?
Aso, have you considered offering to buy the strip of land the fence sits on,
so you could then take it down?
Mary Ann
I think I would do it by now. or you could have a soil sample analyzed
to see if there is any arsenic in it.
susan
Laura,
The primary concern with the CCA PT wood was that children made direct
contact with it, got the arsenic on their hands, put their now contaminated
hands in their mouths, and consequently were being poisoned. Arsenic is a
natural substance in most soils and in very small quantities an essential
nutrient for plants. Somewhere are studies that show that even soils with a
fairly large quantity of arsenic in them are good for growing plants as long
as there is a sufficient level of organic matter in that soil. I would be
less concerned about any arsenic in the soil then I would be about people
making contact with the fence.
Kimm
good answer, and also you Laura, could paint your side of the fence
with preservative, that will keep some of the arsenic from leaching
out.???
susan
In a message dated 1/3/06 10:48:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
laurabrownmckenzie@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:
<< Mary Ann, do you know where I could have this testing done and how much it
would cost? >>
No, but I would start here:
http://www.adem.state.al.us/
Mary Ann, its interesting that you sent the ADEM link. Here in Alabama
ADEM is known for giving the rubber stamp on anything involving corporate
expansion while going after small land holders who have 100 feet of erosion
problems. 3 miles from me sits a quarry. The quarry plans on dumping its
waste into our pristine creek. A creek which is the only one or one of the
only ones in Alabama that is clean enough for trout. ADEM rubber stamped
that proposal in a heartbeat!
The Alabama Sierra Club is working on reforming ADEM... and has been for
two decades now. It is basically an entity as it is now that helps
corporations get around environmental regulations.
Laura
--0-754876989-1136327886=:33380
Laura, what about asking them if they would let you take the fence down and put up a plant fence or some other boundary. I too would see if I could get the soil tested. Sue
Susan Setzler
I think I would do it by now. or you could have a soil sample analyzed
to see if there is any arsenic in it.
susan
--0-754876989-1136327886=:33380Laura, what about asking them if they would let you take the fence down and put up a plant fence or some other boundary. I too would see if I could get the soil tested. Sue
Susan Setzler <christie@PSKNET.COM> wrote:I think I would do it by now. or you could have a soil sample analyzed
to see if there is any arsenic in it.
susan
On Jan 3, 2006, at 10:25 AM, Laura McKenzie wrote:
> I am wondering if perhaps maybe I could use the bed (which is 10
> feet
> wide with a path going down the center of it and 200 feet long) for
> growing
> dwarf apple trees. Would you do it?
--0-754876989-1136327886=:33380--
Mary Ann, New Yorkers are very lucky citizens. Its no end of frustration
to me that the majority of citizens here give very little thought to
pesticides and herbicides and hazardous chemicals. Hopefully time will
change this.
Laura
the
> DEP would help to clean up your arsenic. Or maybe it's because the
citizens
In a message dated 1/3/06 2:20:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
laurabrownmckenzie@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:
<< Mary Ann, its interesting that you sent the ADEM link. Here in Alabama
ADEM is known for giving the rubber stamp on anything involving corporate
expansion while going after small land holders who have 100 feet of erosion
problems. 3 miles from me sits a quarry. The quarry plans on dumping its
waste into our pristine creek. A creek which is the only one or one of the
only ones in Alabama that is clean enough for trout. ADEM rubber stamped
that proposal in a heartbeat!
The Alabama Sierra Club is working on reforming ADEM... and has been for
two decades now. It is basically an entity as it is now that helps
corporations get around environmental regulations. >>
That's too bad. I guess that's the difference in our states. Here in NY the
DEP would help to clean up your arsenic. Or maybe it's because the citizens
here won't let them get away with not cleaning up pollution.
Mary Ann
I don't know about that Mary Ann. In Marathon I worked in a grocery
store who frequently dumped the floor cleaner machine's foul smelling
contents onto the loading dock then allow deliveries to walk through that
filth directly through the deli dep't/butcher room making deliveries. Once
when a customer asked an employee serving meat with his bare hands if he had
washed them after leaving the men's room. The answer was yes, but I chimed
in and asked how he did that since there hadn't been any soap in there for
two weeks. This continued even after I personally complained to the
authorities about there habits. The manager freaked out one day just
because a DEP van parked in the lot for a pit stop. He was scared they were
there to cite him for many violations, but they weren't.
In a message dated 1/3/06 6:43:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jallan6977@EARTHLINK.NET writes:
<< The manager freaked out one day just
because a DEP van parked in the lot for a pit stop. He was scared they were
there to cite him for many violations, but they weren't. >>
The fact that he was afraid of the DEP citation testifies to their clout.
Did anyone complain about his store? I believe the county health department is
the right place to start, not the DEP. They are more concerned with the
outdoors environment.
Mary Ann
I wrote several letters and spoke to even more people, but nothing
happened. I can't say it is still happening at that store because the then
manager was fired for embezzlement. The next manager had a heart attack.
The present one, who has worked for the company for 20 plus years, is
retiring soon. I seldom get to that store anymore due to no transportation
and the cost there of.
Hi Laura,
I have no special expertise in this area, but my best guess is that the
spread of significant amounts of arsenic from the fence is likely to be
confined to the first few inches away from the base, probably insignificant
traces might be found up to 1-2 feet away.
As Kimm says, the /major/ danger with CCA-treated timber is children
handling the timber and then licking or sucking their hands, and even this
is mainly a danger when the timber is fresh. Arsenic occurs naturally in
soils in some places, but small amounts of this element are rarely a
problem.
I was going to offer a similar solution to Mary Ann's - that you make a
private arrangment with the owner, but my suggestion - slightly different -
would have been to offer to build a new fence for them, after removing the
offensive one - however, I see from your comment that this is not a
financial possibility. Pity!! Anyway, a fence that long is a major financial
commitment for /anybody/ even if their finances are quite good! I suppose
the present residents /do/ want a fence there? If you on good terms with
them, maybe they would simply allow you to remove the fence, if you explain
your reasons for wishing to do so?
Sadly, I do not think you would gain any appreciable benefit from painting
your side of the fence as Susan suggested - arsenic or other salts washing
out of the fence on the neighbour's side would still creep underneath onto
your side.
One other point you should consider, and that is that TRACE amounts of
arsenic are required by many plants, and are TOLERATED by humans. In fact, a
couple of hundred years ago, it was common in certain parts of Europe for
people to add arsenic to their diet deliberately!!! You can accustom your
body - gradually - to small traces of arsenic, and gradually increase these
traces, until eventually, you can add arsenic to your food in similar
quantities to adding salt to a dish!
The reason they used to do this, is that arsenic was considered "to improve
the complexion, and also one's breathing capacity". I believe there is truth
in this (especially improving the complexion!), but most people nowadays
prefer to do without this food additive!!!
I agree that you should be cautious - and if you can get a soil test done,
that would be helpful - but /probably/ you could safely plant your dwarf
trees if you do so as far from the fence as is convenient. You seem to have
a wide border there, so probably planting in the middle of this width - or
slightly further towards the outer edge - would be safe. The roots of dwarf
trees do not spread far at all (this is why they remain small). We have
several dwarf apple trees, and the roots probably do not spread much more
than three feet from the trunk.
Re-reading your text, I see you have a path running down the centre of the
ten feet wide bed. This would mean that trees, even dwarf ones, would be
rather a nuisance to someone using that path? If you can tolerate this, then
I would say that planting in the outer half of the bed (on the side of the
path furthest from the fence) should be OK. How familiar are you with the
dimensions to which dwarf trees grow? If it would help you, we can measure,
and send you, the heights and widths of our apple trees (which were grafted
onto Malling IX stock - one of the most-heavily-dwarfing stocks). Some of
our trees are more than forty years old now.
Tony
> I am wondering if perhaps maybe I could use the bed (which is 10 feet
> wide with a path going down the center of it and 200 feet long) for
growing
> dwarf apple trees. Would you do it?
> Laura
I have come to the conclusion over the years that those old fashioned wood
preservatives with arsenic and copper chromate had a lot to be said for. I
have fence posts here that are thirty years old and look better than the
ones I put in with less toxic preservatives (hopefully because it is hard to
certain of anything) only two years ago. The newer wood preservatives are a
pure waste of time since an untreated length of tree fresh from the wood
lasts just as long if not longer.
It is obvious though that these very old stakes don't leach a lot because if
they did they would have long rotted. So however toxic the product used on
them, they may well be safer than the modern ones. Chromium and copper are
most definitely elements we need traces off and maybe the same can be said
for arsenic. I think I read that dark skinned people have a generally
healthier skin if there is a tiny trace of arsenic in their diet. Also you
probably get a much higher dose of arsenic by eating one single commercial
chicken that probably has had a very high arsenic diet as growth promoter.
So yes, if I were in your shoes I would use my beds for food production and
apple trees look as safe as you can be really.
john
