Long-Term Organic and Early Stage =
Biodynamic
Gardener in central NH
(warm end of Zone 4) USA

We trust in =
the
Great Presence that surrounds, guides and supports us. 
We =
also trust
in microbes, worms, intention, unseen forces, compost,
love and =
diligent
care.

Essie Hull on sun 13 jan 02

--=====================_30224910==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Kevin - I was impressed by the pictures in Maria Thun's book, Gardening For Life The Biodynamic Way. I am not impeccable with my planting, but I try to follow BD planting (and harvesting) recommendations when I'm putting in fruiting trees, transplants, and especially storage vegetables. This year was the first time I was fairly compulsive in following the BD recommendations for putting seeds in (for indoor starts - tomatoes, peppers, etc). I plant in a cold greenhouse on heating mats. Usually I have a fair amount of spindly starts and other cold-area problems. Last spring we had a lot of cold, snowy, gray weather well past what we are used to. I've never had such healthy, robust starts. I was delighted. I've also had excellent storage so far for potatoes, onions, garlic, and kohlrabi. I've already eaten up the cabbages. To me, the proof is in the pudding. Doesn't make sense just to believe something because it's supposed to work. But try it and see what happens. As a home gardener I don't have the time or the organization to do comparative studies. But Maria Thun did. Pick up her book and look it over. Best, Essie At 10:21 AM 1/13/02 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Essie > >I think there are many good aspects to BioDynamic Gardening, but I haven't >been able to get my head around the concept of a "critical planting window." > >If JT planted one of her trees in "the right" window, and the other in >"the wrong" window, what differences would you expect to see in them, and >how long would you expect before the differences were evident? > >Kindest regards, > >Kevin Chisholm >----- Original Message ----- >From: Essie Hull >To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU >Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 10:00 AM >Subject: Re: Time to plant apples? > >At 09:38 AM 1/13/02 +0000, you wrote: >>I have a couple of apple trees to plant. I could stick them down in >>the ground today, but on the other hand wouldn't mind trying planting >>them according to the Rudolf Steiner biodynamic method. Anyone got a >>calendar that gives the right date for apple trees? - JTT > > >Actually, we're in a fruiting period right now (with moon descending, >which is what you want for bare root stock or transplants). It ends at >around 5 pm today. The BD planting calendar is called Stella Natura, and >can be ordered from the Acres, USA bookstore. Maria Thun's book, >Gardening For Life The Biodynamic Way is also very helpful. > >For after they are planted, there is a dynamite receipe for minerals to >put around the trees that will absolutely nourish them. I can send it to >you if you like or you can find it either in the St. Lawrence Nurseries >catalog or the FEDCO Tree catalog. >Happy Planting, >Essie > >Long-Term Organic and Early Stage Biodynamic Gardener in central NH >(warm end of Zone 4) USA > >We trust in the Great Presence that surrounds, guides and supports us. >We also trust in microbes, worms, intention, unseen forces, compost, >love and diligent care. --=====================_30224910==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Kevin -
I was impressed by the pictures in Maria Thun's book, Gardening For Life The Biodynamic Way. I am not impeccable with my planting, but I try to follow BD planting (and harvesting) recommendations when I'm putting in fruiting trees, transplants, and especially storage vegetables.

This year was the first time I was fairly compulsive in following the BD recommendations for putting seeds in (for indoor starts - tomatoes, peppers, etc). I plant in a cold greenhouse on heating mats. Usually I have a fair amount of spindly starts and other cold-area problems. Last spring we had a lot of cold, snowy, gray weather well past what we are used to. I've never had such healthy, robust starts. I was delighted. I've also had excellent storage so far for potatoes, onions, garlic, and kohlrabi. I've already eaten up the cabbages. To me, the proof is in the pudding. Doesn't make sense just to believe something because it's supposed to work. But try it and see what happens.

As a home gardener I don't have the time or the organization to do comparative studies. But Maria Thun did. Pick up her book and look it over.

Best,
Essie

At 10:21 AM 1/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
Dear Essie

I think there are many good aspects to BioDynamic Gardening, but I haven't been able to get my head around the concept of a critical planting window.

If JT planted one of her trees in the right window, and the other in the wrong window, what differences would you expect to see in them, and how long would you expect before the differences were evident?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm ----- Original Message ----- From: Essie Hull To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 10:00 AM Subject: Re: Time to plant apples?

At 09:38 AM 1/13/02 +0000, you wrote: I have a couple of apple trees to plant. I could stick them down in the ground today, but on the other hand wouldn't mind trying planting them according to the Rudolf Steiner biodynamic method. Anyone got a calendar that gives the right date for apple trees? - JTT

Actually, we're in a fruiting period right now (with moon descending, which is what you want for bare root stock or transplants). It ends at around 5 pm today. The BD planting calendar is called Stella Natura, and can be ordered from the Acres, USA bookstore. Maria Thun's book, Gardening For Life The Biodynamic Way is also very helpful.

For after they are planted, there is a dynamite receipe for minerals to put around the trees that will absolutely nourish them. I can send it to you if you like or you can find it either in the St. Lawrence Nurseries catalog or the FEDCO Tree catalog. Happy Planting, Essie

Long-Term Organic and Early Stage Biodynamic Gardener in central NH (warm end of Zone 4) USA

We trust in the Great Presence that surrounds, guides and supports us. We also trust in microbes, worms, intention, unseen forces, compost, love and diligent care.
--=====================_30224910==_.ALT--

Carol Jensen on sun 13 jan 02

Kevin, I have read a couple of Maria Thun's books and have SEEN the
difference, as she is very good at illustrating with clear pictures.
There is a definite difference, even more than using phases of the
moon.

Carol

Dear Essie

I think there are many good aspects to BioDynamic Gardening, but I
haven't been able to get my head around the concept of a "critical
planting window."

If JT planted one of her trees in "the right" window, and the other in
"the wrong" window, what differences would you expect to see in them, and
how long would you expect before the differences were evident?

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm

----- Original Message -----

From: <Essie Hull

To: <OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU

Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 10:00 AM

Subject: Re: Time to plant apples?

I have a couple of apple trees to plant. I could stick them
down in

the ground today, but on the other hand wouldn't mind trying planting

them according to the Rudolf Steiner biodynamic method. Anyone got a

calendar that gives the right date for apple trees? - JTT



Actually, we're in a fruiting period right now (with moon descending,
which is what you want for bare root stock or transplants). It ends at
around 5 pm today. The BD planting calendar is called Stella Natura, and
can be ordered from the Acres, USA bookstore. Maria Thun's book,
Gardening For Life The Biodynamic Way is also very helpful.

For after they are planted, there is a dynamite receipe for minerals to
put around the trees that will absolutely nourish them. I can send it to
you if you like or you can find it either in the St. Lawrence Nurseries
catalog or the FEDCO Tree catalog.

Happy Planting,

Essie

Long-Term Organic and Early Stage Biodynamic Gardener in central NH

(warm end of Zone 4) USA

We trust in the Great Presence that surrounds, guides and supports us.

We also trust in microbes, worms, intention, unseen forces, compost,

love and diligent care.



<<<<<<<<

JT Thompson on mon 14 jan 02

> For after they are planted, there is a dynamite receipe for minerals
> to put around the trees that will absolutely nourish them.

Oh, yes please.

Something weird with my Eudora: I only found these emails by
searching the OGL mailbox for "apples". Weird.

billevans on mon 14 jan 02

Essie,maybe you ought to stretch the goodies out to a 5-6 foot radius(
10-12 ' diameter)
it sounds a bit rich for the coverage you mention... but then I have
only planted a few apples in my day. Still ,even kelp meal Ive used at a
coverage of a pound per 100ft^2, your calling out 2#'s.,,,, there's
others...
This all should mellow for 6 months minimum or ??
bille

Here goes:
The fall preparation mix is as follows (spread around where tree will be
planted on an area 4-6' in diameter): 5 lbs. aragonite, 5 lbs colloidal
phosphate, 5 lbs azomite, 5 lbs granite meal, 3 lbs Menafee humates, 3 lbs
green stone, 2 lbs bone meal, 2 lbs kelp meal, 3 lbs alfalfa meal, 2 lbs
blood meal. ..

Essie Hull on mon 14 jan 02

Here goes:
The fall preparation mix is as follows (spread around where tree will be
planted on an area 4-6' in diameter): 5 lbs. aragonite, 5 lbs colloidal
phosphate, 5 lbs azomite, 5 lbs granite meal, 3 lbs Menafee humates, 3 lbs
green stone, 2 lbs bone meal, 2 lbs kelp meal, 3 lbs alfalfa meal, 2 lbs
blood meal. I think that's it. Then top with some molasses if you have
it (don't know quantity, but not much - a little microorganism treat), 25
lbs compost and a thick mulch cover (leaves, etc). In the spring, the soil
will be ready for the little tree. For established trees, spread out to
drip line, in slightly greater measure. Yumyumyum!

With that, and with foliar feeding with a compost tea made from largely
worm castings (a bit more complicated than that, actually, and I'm no
expert), you should have blemish-free fruit and very healthy trees.

Best,
Essie

Essie Hull on tue 15 jan 02

Six feet sounds fine to me. My circles usually have a radius of 7-8', just
because I tend to be sloppy.
Essie

Essie Hull on wed 16 jan 02

Where do you live? FEDCO in Maine sells it all (with the exception of
molasses), but here in NH we buy at large discounts with minimal
shipping. I would begin searching by contacting organic growers, or your
local Organic Farmers' association. Our NOFA-NH has a yearly amendment sale.
Essie

JT Thompson on wed 16 jan 02

Oh dear - where do I get all this stuff?

Kevin Chisholm on wed 16 jan 02

Dear JT

You wrote previously about a "failure to thrive" condition in your garden.
Did you very take soil samples to determine if your soil had excess and
deficiencies? This would seem to be a first step, in that you have a known
"problem situation" with an unknown cause. At least, in the case of my
"problem situation", the cause is generally known..... the fields are
generally worn out due to underworking, general depletion, neglect, and a
lack of organics.

Secondly, the formulation Essie suggested is appropriate for her general
area..... you may have a "different general requirement in your general
area."

Some of the recomended ingredients are generic, and some seem to be
Trademark Products. Given that this was apparently a BioDynamic Preparation,
and given that you appear to wish to try BioDynamics, some ingredients may
have significance beyond their chemistry.

Call your local sources of Organic Gardening amendments, and they should be
able to help you.

Kindest regards,

Kevin Chisholm
lbs
> green stone, 2 lbs bone meal, 2 lbs kelp meal, 3 lbs alfalfa meal, 2 lbs
> blood meal. I think that's it. Then top with some molasses if you have
> it (don't know quantity, but not much - a little microorganism treat), 25
> lbs compost and a thick mulch cover (leaves, etc). In the spring, the
soil

JT Thompson on wed 16 jan 02

I live in Ireland. I can get the molasses here ok...

Carol Jensen on wed 16 jan 02

> Oh dear - where do I get all this stuff?

That's what I thought! A maker of graveyard stones might give you granite dust. I know a place quite near me which has green sand, if you ever come this far north. As for the rest I haven't a clue!

Carol

Kris.Johnson on fri 18 jan 02

It sounds like there is a lot of overlap in the fall prep mix below. Might
it be possible to get equal benefit from a simpler mix?

One question I have is what purpose do the humates serve? Is that really
needed when you have good compost to use?

Peace,
Kris Johnson, gardening in northwest Ohio

sale.
lbs
> green stone, 2 lbs bone meal, 2 lbs kelp meal, 3 lbs alfalfa meal, 2 lbs
> blood meal. I think that's it. Then top with some molasses if you
have
> it (don't know quantity, but not much - a little microorganism treat),
25
> lbs compost and a thick mulch cover (leaves, etc). In the spring, the
soil
> will be ready for the little tree. For established trees, spread out
to

Essie Hull on tue 22 jan 02

All -
It was a receipe repeated in two organic nursery catalogs - FEDCO and St.
Lawrence Nurseries. As I was putting in new trees last year, I tried most
of the receipe, although I did not use bone or blood meal, nor did I use
kelp meal (did minimal feeding, however, with liquid kelp). Also used
lime instead of aragonite, although I think that aragonite would be a good
substitute for lime for me for a few years, to reduce magnesium and free up
calcium. I did not have greenstone available to me last year, but have a
source now and will add that this year as I am interested in what sort of
contribution the alleged paramagnetic medium will make.

In any event, the little trees flourished. They grew sturdily, happily and
not excessively. I would say that my soil was moderately depleted at
onset; the site where the trees were planted had never been composted or
tended other than mowing, and originally (before I removed the trees years
ago) had hosted a spindly pine woods. The original soil was either sandy
or wretched or both.

I'll be putting in the final complement of fruit trees this spring, and
have pre-prepared with the same (modified) formula. I agree that blood and
bone meal, though called for, might be too rich and I never use those
amendments anyway, because we have critters here that would be attracted by
them. I intend to foliar feed with compost tea, as recommended.

Actually, late next fall I intend to use the same preparation on my mature
trees, watching first to see how last year's tiny trees wintered over and
(hopefully) prospered. In theory it is a receipe that needs to be repeated
perhaps every 10 years or so. The nurseryman who suggested the receipe is
coming to the area in 6 weeks or so to present a workshop on organic
orchard management, very difficult here in the Northeast. I'll talk with
him in detail. I'll talk with him about humates, as well.

By the way, Moira, I was wondering whether comfrey roots would compete with
your trees. Whenever I remove comfrey from an area I have a great deal of
digging and prying up to do.

Best,
Essie

JT Thompson on tue 22 jan 02

I've planted my Blood of the Boyne and Ten Commandments apples this
morning, with compost, newspapers, seaweed and love, at the
biodynamic time; I also planted a bunch of Autumn Bliss raspberries.
We shall see.

Carol Jensen on tue 22 jan 02

If the roots benefit soil, you could just cut them, as well as cut most weeds instead of pulling them. They are bastards to dig, I know, so I cut mine last year.

Carol

Tony & Moira Ryan on tue 22 jan 02

"Kris.Johnson" wrote:
Kris
I must add my protest to yours. Even if Essie's soil starts severely
depleted and needs to be reconstructed, I cannot conceive how any tree
could really be able to make use of such a surfeit of nourishment,
especially at the time it is just planted and has a pretty limited root
system. I should say that much of this astonishing list of goodies
represents overkill and is likely to be simply wasted. I am not so sure
the tree swould be entirely healthy anyway with such a high dosage of
nitrogen, especially the very concentrated but quick-acting, blood meal
might tend to encourage very sappy growth the first season.

My recipe for planting a new tree, applied over a similar area, would
normally consist of a generous (3 inch) layer of fully finished compost
mixed with maybe quarter of a pound of a mixed mineral powder (providing
mainly P,K and Ca) and about the same of kelp powder. Covered with an
mulch to protect the compost (preferably chipped ramile wood) I should
expect this to keep the tree healthy and growing without any further
additions for at least the first two or three years, after which it
would get a regular yearly helping of ramile woodchips (my own, made
largely from healthy prunings from my mature fruit trees). Every 3 years
or so I would usually supplement this with a further inch of compost.
Last year I also also planted comfrey under my largest apple and pear
trees which I hope will capture and retain any spare nutrient the
microherd find surplus to their requirements. I recently took off my
first cutting of leaves and am experimenting with applying these as soon
as wilted as a top mulch in various vegetable beds, covered with a
modest layer of grassclippings. I understand they should be rich in
potassium, so will be especially interested to see their effect on the
tomatoes. I have seen it recommended to line the trenches with them
before setting potato tubers, but there is a slight logistic difficulty
with this idea in my garden at least,as their spring leaves do not even
begin to emerge from the ground before the potatoes have beeen in for
several weeks!

With this general feeding regime I also would expect to get bumper
yearly crops of disease-free apples. The only problem (largely in the
past) has been codling moth, which does not seem to be daunted by being
faced with a healthy tree Gradually however, as my garden has become
virtually spray free* and more parasites kick in this threat is
diminishing -to the extent I now need to hand-thin my big Cox tree or
the size of the fruit suffers!!
*(In the last three years all that has gone through our sprayer has been
dilute milk an compost tea).

Like Kris I should also like you to tell us please Essie what advantages
you have found from using humate. My favourite organic supplier
advertized this last year and I bought some on impulse, but am not quite
sure how to use it to the best advantage so it continues to sit on the
shelf..

Moira

Essie Hull Wrote
--
Tony & Moira Ryan
Wainuiomata, New Zealand, SW Pacific. 12 hours ahead of Greenwich Time

Essie Hull on tue 22 jan 02

I have for years used only dolomite. Now I have aragonite and just
discovered that calcite is newly available in this area. I'll use the
aragonite for awhile, and then maybe switch to calcite.

> The one thing on which I would differ from you is the omission of the
> kelp meal, as this is a very good source of trace elements and also of
> growth substances, which can be helpful to young trees.

I didn't have kelp meal last year, which is the only reason I didn't use
it. Used liquid kelp instead, albeit sparingly. Have the kelp meal now
and plan on using it!

Could be.

Actually, no. He's a phenomenal nurseryman in the northeast and a
splendid, grounded, competent person. He doesn't sell amendments. He's
the one who'll be doing the workshop in this area. I'll ask him about the
quantities. It's an interesting situation in these parts - there is
virtually no one who has been able to raise good fruit organically. Mark
does, and so I'm eager to hear what he has to say. We tend to get our
organic fruit from the west coast, which has such a very different
climate. Despite the fact of growing numbers of organic veggie growers
here, organic fruit is simply not available regionally. I would therefore
say that "ridiculous" is a strong word. Let's just see what he has to say,
and let's measure the situation by outcome rather than by assumptions of
what's correct or not.

Good to hear!

Of course. Gladly.

It's always good to hear from you, Moira - your experience and knowledge
are substantial, and so freely shared.

Thanks,
Essie

Tony & Moira Ryan on wed 23 jan 02

Essie Hull wrote:
Thanks Essie for information on how you came by this complex recipe for
soil preparation. Mind you, even if I wanted to use it something like
this it would be pretty difficult in NZ. This is simply the difference
between living in a mineral rich area such as the US which has a large
enough demand to justify people mining the more unusual sorts of
material and a really quite mineral poor place like NZ with a
comparatively miniscule demand for such things.. I am not sure quite
what you mean about using aragonite in preference to lime to reduce
magnesium. Here we have two sorts of ground limestone available and
while one (Dolomite) is basically a carbonate of magnesium we can also
freely get the straight calcite which does not contain any magnesium. I
do not think however the aragonite form occurs here and I have certainly
never heard of it being available for soil dressing.

The one thing on which I would differ from you is the omission of the
kelp meal, as this is a very good source of trace elements and also of
growth substances, which can be helpful to young trees. However I do
think yet again the amount is excessive. The sort I get suggests using
25gm (Almost exactly an ounce) per sq metre (just over a square yard).

> In any event, the little trees flourished. They grew sturdily, happily and
> not excessively.
I would say that my soil was moderately depleted at onset; the site
where the trees were planted had never been composted ortended other
than mowing, and originally (before I removed the trees years ago) had
hosted a spindly >pine woods. The original soil was either sandy or
wretched or both.

Typical pine country I should say, which would certainly justify a
fairly rich "brew" to get things moving, but I still baulk at the
_quantities_ suggested and feel that even if you supply at the same time
a rich compost with plenty of hungry organisms they would simply have
more food available than they could possibly process. (I do wonder if
the trees would not have done just as well with much more modest
feeding.)

For people who, unlike you, are starting from an already live and
comparatively well-supplied soil the quantities seem so excessive as to
verge on the ridiculous. Perhaps the person suggesting the brew has
shares in mining companies or at least has an interest in selling as
much as possible. I cannot believe it would be commercially viable to
use such high rates and even for home gardeners it really represents I
think a considerabe waste of money.
Once you have a live soil with the appropriate n-fixers among the
microherd extra nitrogen is rarely an issue. Most of these soils
naturally collect all they need quite easily. (The alfalafa meal, in
case you were not aware, is a well-known rich vegetable source of
nitrogen, but also supplies other elements.)

I intend to foliar feed with compost tea, as recommended.

This s one thing I do for my fruit trees every year, but not with the
intent of feeding the leaves, rather to protect them from fungal attack
(which I understand is thought to be largely achieved by antagonism
between the microorganisms in the compost and the diseases spores which
prevents the latter establishing themselves on the leaves). Whatever the
mechanism anyhow, I have had great success with this on apples, having
eliminated the previously endemic scab disease from my trees entirely.
Elsewhere it has greatly reduced a similarly chronic leafspot which used
to regularly defoliate my quince trees and spoil the fruit.

The nurseryman who suggested the receipe is
> coming to the area in 6 weeks or so to present a workshop on organic
> orchard management, very difficult here in the Northeast. I'll talk with
> him in detail. I'll talk with him about humates, as well.

Do please share with us what he comes up with.

> By the way, Moira, I was wondering whether comfrey roots would compete with
> your trees. Whenever I remove comfrey from an area I have a great deal of > digging and prying up to do.

I have wondered myself and am trying this with a little trepidation, but
really I have nowhere else suitable. I have confined the planting to the
inner root zone of two vigorous mature trees (45 year olds) well inside
their driplines, so I hope there will be minimum interference. So far
there is no sign the trees are so much as aware of their new companions.
I do wonder however if such deep-rooters as comfrey may actually help
their companions by bringing up deep down minerals to the surface and
sharing them with the organisms around their crowns. I have been led to
think this way by the also deep rooting dandelions, which grow around
the perimeter of many of my veg beds. If one should disturb them or pull
them out there are always worms skittering away, which presumbly have
been finding extra goodies in the root vicinity.

Best to you too
Moira

> --
> Tony & Moira Ryan
> Wainuiomata, New Zealand, SW Pacific. 12 hours ahead of Greenwich Time

--
Tony & Moira Ryan
Wainuiomata, New Zealand, SW Pacific. 12 hours ahead of Greenwich Time