I'd just layer some good layer manure( chicken) over the area , or
ewhatever hot manure you have available, maybe some gypsum to boot, or lime
if you have Ca deficiency in your soiul........... and cover w/ multiple
layers( 6 or more) of black newsprint, followed by several inches of oat
straw. Make sure to go back over the area in a couple weeks to catch
anything poking it's way out, and periodically, to keep things as fallow as
possible till late summer.
The extra Ca/ N in the layer manure and gypsum should stir up the
decomposers enough to go to town and eat up the weeds you don't want.
If you feel really ambitious you could fork the whole area( just insert and
wiggle to aerate- don't turn over). nThis would further stimulate the
microherd to action.
Any of the weeds you do pull up , I would leave under the manure and paper
to rot.
bille
For the last couple years, I've been struggling with what some type of
grass: crab, quack, bermuda, I'm not sure which but it's one that
travels via long underground roots, so that when you pull it, it sprouts
from any root bits left in the ground. Sadly, my garden has gotten a
bit out of hand due to physical problems (3 springs ago it was hernia
surgery, last spring it was having my leg in a cast due to
marathon-running-induced tendonitis, and just now I'm recovering from
carpal tunnel surgery (both hands). I'm to the point now where I can
get out and actually get some work done, but am somewhat dismayed at the
sad shape of my garden from such neglect the past few years. Anyway,
this grass has taken over my asparagus bed (horrors!), and is creeping
into my raised beds. Nasty stuff! I'm meticulously digging it out and
trying to get all the roots, but I'm sure I'll miss a bunch. Any
suggestions on how to get rid of this stuff, other than yanking it out
for the rest of my life? I'd love to be able to afford some kind of
borders around my garden perimeter and the raised beds, but the area is
too huge, so it's gonna have to be "yank and pull" I'm afraid. I do
mulch heavily, but the roots of this grass just love that stuff and grow
all through it. Sigh... Anyone else under siege by grass? And what do
you do about it?
Deb
Like you I am under seige by couch grass (is this the same as quack grass?). It
goes under any sort of mulch, including the thick layers of paper and pea straw I
have on the paths between my vege beds, and I have even known it to grow
through black plastic. I have not found any better way than giving the whole
vegetable garden an annual thorough weed in early winter. Since learning about
the microherd and the damage disturbing it does, this has worried me. But having
couch grass all through the vege garden seems the worse evil to me.
Valerie
Blaithin wrote: on 17 Apr 2003
-------------------------------------
Valerie Thompson
Waikouaiti (East Otago, New Zealand)
-------------------------------------
Yup. My method needs a fallow period and only considers getting rid of the
weeds in question.
You couldn't do it w/ much success w/ dedicated plantings
throughout the area, already.
Pat, I don't recall postulating that ph could deter crabgrass.
I do recall proposing that an increase in Ca content ,coupled w/ adequate
moisture, N, the now "boosted" microherd( they like Ca, N, etc.), and time
could increase the decomposition level in the immeadiate area to the extent
that the weeds would rot in place.. Any aboveground plants in the vicinity
ought to show increased vigor.
bille
-----Original Message-
> Any
> suggestions on how to get rid of this stuff, other than yanking it out
> for the rest of my life?
You mean, like Hell on Earth? I don't think they had this problem in the
Garden of Eden......
I know that Bill Evans has good ideas about changing the pH of the soil to
make it inhospitable to the Dastardly Grass
Let see if i can "shotgun" some recomendations on the "huge" amount of
materials needed to follow my proposed "fix" for a soil overrun w/
stoloniferous/rhizomatous " weeds".
4 pounds calcitic lime per 100 ft^2 in a soil where Ca base saturation is
lower than 60 percent
GYpsum should be substituted if it is higher( multiply amount by 2)
Dolomite should be substuted if the soil is especially sandy and it is
known that there is little Mg available.
2 cubic feet of chicken manure. Other manure will work, but, should be
fairly hot. Increase amounts accordingly, as chicken is usually pretty hot.
Newspaper to cover all w/ at least 6-7 layers.
Weeds should remain in place, that is, they should just be chopped down and
remain on top of the soil prior to commencing w/ the laying on of amendments
proposed.
One bale of old straw should suffice to hide the newspaper well enough...
and then some
NOte: if the weeds and DG's are especially lush, you can prolly cut back
on the amount of manure used.
Again , perimeter plants ought not be harmed
bille
2) we would have to cover a very large perimeter area with a Ca source,
manure, etc., because the Dastardly Grass runs in from the lawn area; to
treat, say, a 5' perimeter would require a great deal of material. And
what would happen to the good grass ringing the veg beds?
Deb wrote:
> Any
> suggestions on how to get rid of this stuff, other than yanking it out
> for the rest of my life?
You mean, like Hell on Earth? I don't think they had this problem in the
Garden of Eden......
I know that Bill Evans has good ideas about changing the pH of the soil to
make it inhospitable to the Dastardly Grass but that concept doesn't work
well in this particular situation because:
1) the pH that would deter the Dastardly Grass would be too high for the
vegs we want to grow in the beds;
2) we would have to cover a very large perimeter area with a Ca source,
manure, etc., because the Dastardly Grass runs in from the lawn area; to
treat, say, a 5' perimeter would require a great deal of material. And what
would happen to the good grass ringing the veg beds?
I *try* to keep a clear trench, about 6" wide, around the plots (our plots
contain either 3 or 5 beds), but it is hard to stay ahead of the Dastardly
Grass in the summer. The *#^$&@ stuff runs into the beds and under the
plants. On the other hand, it usually pulls out easily from the beds, not
having had time to get anchored there.
I've tried chopping the trench with a hoe, or raking it, to keep it clear,
but neither method is satisfactory because, although they break up the
material in the trench, they don't get the Dastardly Grass out of the beds
into which it has run. Ditto with just trimming the trench edge. So, what
I end up doing several times a year -- dreadfully labor intensive -- is
sitting on the ground with garden claw and hedge shears: rake the Dastardly
Grass and weeds out of the trench (pulling them *away* from the veg beds and
*toward* the lawn side) and then shearing the edge (I've found the shears
are faster than scissors and I prefer their two-handed action rather than
continued use of one hand for the scissors). And, of course, digging or
pulling out whatever Dastardly Grass has run into the veg beds.
I've plopped down entire sections of the Washington Post covered with
several inches of fresh wood chips in the paths between the beds. The
Dastardly Grass runs in from the lawn and continues under the paper and
chips until it finds its way out into a veg bed. It may be blanched under
all that material, but it is still alive and vigorous.
And on that helpful note, I'll end....
Pat
EXACTLY! It sounds like we have a similar set-up...I've done the thick
newspaper/wood chips on my pathways between raised beds and the
Dastardly Grass (DG) zips right under/through it like it wasn't there
and creeps on in to the next bed. It's slinks in from the yard area
surrounding the garden, and from any area where grass was left between
beds. We left a lawn "pathway" between my lower garden and the upper
garden (which consists of terraced raised beds up the side of a hill),
and the DG is groping its way into those beds too. Argh! Yes, the DG
does pull out easily from the raised beds because of the nice friable
soil there. Ahhhh, to have a Garden of Eden! No weeds, no *&^%$#
gnats, no disease, no ROCKS...it's amazing we can find such joy in
gardening amidst our constant "struggle against evil", isn't it?!
Deb...just wondering if we gardeners are really closet masochists or
what?!
Behalf Of Patricia Ruggiero
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:40 PM
To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: FW: ~^~^~ That dastardly grass...~^~^~
Pat wrote:
You mean, like Hell on Earth? I don't think they had this problem in
the Garden of Eden......
I know that Bill Evans has good ideas about changing the pH of the soil
to make it inhospitable to the Dastardly Grass but that concept doesn't
work well in this particular situation because:
1) the pH that would deter the Dastardly Grass would be too high for the
vegs we want to grow in the beds;
2) we would have to cover a very large perimeter area with a Ca source,
manure, etc., because the Dastardly Grass runs in from the lawn area; to
treat, say, a 5' perimeter would require a great deal of material. And
what would happen to the good grass ringing the veg beds?
I *try* to keep a clear trench, about 6" wide, around the plots (our
plots contain either 3 or 5 beds), but it is hard to stay ahead of the
Dastardly Grass in the summer. The *#^$&@ stuff runs into the beds and
under the plants. On the other hand, it usually pulls out easily from
the beds, not having had time to get anchored there.
I've tried chopping the trench with a hoe, or raking it, to keep it
clear, but neither method is satisfactory because, although they break
up the material in the trench, they don't get the Dastardly Grass out of
the beds into which it has run. Ditto with just trimming the trench
edge. So, what I end up doing several times a year -- dreadfully labor
intensive -- is sitting on the ground with garden claw and hedge shears:
rake the Dastardly Grass and weeds out of the trench (pulling them
*away* from the veg beds and
*toward* the lawn side) and then shearing the edge (I've found the
shears are faster than scissors and I prefer their two-handed action
rather than continued use of one hand for the scissors). And, of course,
digging or pulling out whatever Dastardly Grass has run into the veg
beds.
I've plopped down entire sections of the Washington Post covered with
several inches of fresh wood chips in the paths between the beds. The
Dastardly Grass runs in from the lawn and continues under the paper and
chips until it finds its way out into a veg bed. It may be blanched
under all that material, but it is still alive and vigorous.
And on that helpful note, I'll end....
Pat
Pat, How far is it from your Dastardly Grass Lawn that you want to keep and
your garden beds?
Maybe you should solarize the DG lawn for all the agravation it causes you.
I'm sure youcould think of other less invasive "lawns" to cover the area
after it has been killed off.
No wonder the DG runs under the mulch that has been put down. YOu don't list
manure as being used under the newsprint.
YOu won't get the microherd on your side( what's needed for my method to
work)
without Nitrogen.SOunds like you have plenty of C tho.
bille
I've plopped down entire sections of the Washington Post covered with
several inches of fresh wood chips in the paths between the beds. The
Dastardly Grass runs in from the lawn and continues under the paper and
chips until it finds its way out into a veg bed. It may be blanched
under all that material, but it is still alive and vigorous.
Have we found out what this dastardly grass is called? Does it have runners on top of the soil or does it keep underground?
I would put these plastic stuff around the beds, though it costs quite a bit and involves digging them down. They should be quite high before being dug down.
Also, the no-dig technique is no good with quack grass. You really have to dig it very thoroughly (slowly and carefully) out of your beds. I have done it with great success every fall and spring when I had a garden where it was rampant.
Where I am now there was nothing but lots of piles of stones in the garden, and quack grass hasn't found me yet!
Carol
> Perimeter area + center walkway = 1650 sq. ft.
Bill Evans wrote:
> 4 pounds calcitic lime per 100 ft^2 in a soil where Ca base saturation is
> lower than 60 percent
66 lbs. of this. Or --
...................about 6 $US.
> GYpsum should be substituted if it is higher( multiply amount by 2)
132 lbs. of this
.................. same as above
> 2 cubic feet of chicken manure. Other manure will work, but, should be
> fairly hot. Increase amounts accordingly, as chicken is usually
> pretty hot.
Are we still talking "per 100 sq. ft." If so, then:
33 cu. ft. of this
.......................... Yup, we are. Gotta be a scrounger for this
particular offal. You can make a deal w/ your local egg ranch. I think 5$
for a couple trashcans full is a good deal. Pay more if you must. or buy it
bagged( already( expensive). yes it smells.
> Newspaper to cover all w/ at least 6-7 layers.
A lot.
............. you can use cardboard as well. BOth are relatively free for the
taking( or saving).
Assuming one bale per 100 sq. ft? OK, then I need 16.5 bales.
......................... Usually free for the asking( by the dozens) at Xmas
and halloween
> Again , perimeter plants ought not be harmed
Dastardly Grass *in the perimeter* is the problem.
............... Pot up your non- DG's( in the perimeter( if any) ), then
,"go to town".
bille
Perimeter area + center walkway = 1650 sq. ft.
Bill Evans wrote:
> 4 pounds calcitic lime per 100 ft^2 in a soil where Ca base saturation is
> lower than 60 percent
66 lbs. of this. Or --
> GYpsum should be substituted if it is higher( multiply amount by 2)
132 lbs. of this
> 2 cubic feet of chicken manure. Other manure will work, but, should be
> fairly hot. Increase amounts accordingly, as chicken is usually
> pretty hot.
Are we still talking "per 100 sq. ft." If so, then:
33 cu. ft. of this
> Newspaper to cover all w/ at least 6-7 layers.
A lot.
> One bale of old straw should suffice to hide the newspaper well enough...
> and then some
Assuming one bale per 100 sq. ft? OK, then I need 16.5 bales.
> Again , perimeter plants ought not be harmed
Dastardly Grass *in the perimeter* is the problem.
See my next post.
Pat
Bill asked:
> Pat, How far is it from your Dastardly Grass Lawn that you want
> to keep and
> your garden beds?
The veg garden was carved out of the "lawn." This lawn consists of a
variety of green things: some turf grasses, various weeds, and bermuda
grass. I used the term "Dastardly Grass" because Deb, the original poster,
used it, referring to bermuda, crab, quack, and maybe something else (I
can't recall). In our case, it's bermuda.
> Maybe you should solarize the DG lawn for all the aggravation it
> causes you.
> I'm sure youcould think of other less invasive "lawns" to cover the area
> after it has been killed off.
Yes, but see next post where I ruminate (good verb, don't you think, in this
case?) on rejuvenating lawns in general.
> No wonder the DG runs under the mulch that has been put down. YOu
> don't list
> manure as being used under the newsprint.
Getting fresh, hot manure ain't easy here in the country. (I'm not
kidding.)
> YOu won't get the microherd on your side (what's needed for my method to
> work)
> without Nitrogen.
Have you actually done this? If so, could you describe the particulars?
> SOunds like you have plenty of C tho.
You got that right.
Pat
Bill wrote:
Right, but one could rejuvenate the surrounding area. See my post on this.
> Pat, I don't recall postulating that pH could deter crabgrass.
I've always assumed that when you spoke of adding a Ca source you had in
mind a rise in pH, but I see that that isn't necessarily so. You're
referring to nutrient availability, right? Still, wouldn't the pH increase
by doing this?
Pat
Pat, can you grow REAL grass in Virginia, or is it too hot. By real grass I mean the stuff on my lawn, on golf places, in England, Ireland, etc. Bluegrass, ryegrass and the like, which like cool wet climates.
If it were possible then I would agree with Bill that you should solarize the lawn.
Bermuda is a lot easier to pull up than quack, huh? What I mean is, it is POSSIBLE to pull it up. Very ugly grass though.
Carol
Yes I've done it. Specifics, WHat have I given you already??
bille
Incidentally, you haven't answered my question about whether
you've actually tried your suggestions and what were the specifics....
Pat
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Carol wrote:
> Pat, can you grow REAL grass in Virginia, or is it too hot. By
> real grass I mean the stuff on my lawn, on golf places, in
> England, Ireland, etc. Bluegrass, ryegrass and the like, which
> like cool wet climates.
No. Fescue is the preferred grass, I think.
> If it were possible then I would agree with Bill that you should
> solarize the lawn.
If we were going to rejuvenate the lawn that borders the veg garden, for a
distance of 5' all around, we would probably follow the procedure I outlined
in my earlier post. We're not keen on having black plastic on the ground.
> Bermuda is a lot easier to pull up than quack, huh? What I mean
> is, it is POSSIBLE to pull it up. Very ugly grass though.
As far as I know, we don't have quack. Which, from the sounds of it
(remember how Frank would refer to it as "the evil quack"?) is dreadful.
Pat
Although I live in a rural county, it doesn't include poultry operations for
either eggs or meat. Nearest such is, I think, in the Shenandoah Valley.
Not having a truck complicates gardening plans; my little Honda Civic
hatchback has experienced numerous short trips to transport what one
decent-sized pickup could carry. Including horse manure and stable
bedding....
Ha! Not around here! Try $4/square bale. Farmers here say that many years
they get more for the straw bales than for the grain of which it's the
stubble.
> Dastardly Grass *in the perimeter* is the problem.
> .............. Pot up your non- DG's( in the perimeter( if any) ), then
> ,"go to town".
The perimeter is only grasses and weeds, of which the DG is one.
______
These aren't insurmountable obstacles, by any means, esp. as I now realize
that 33 cu. *ft* is a whole heckuva lot less than the 33 cu. *yards* that my
brain was thinking. I could use weeds to cover and I could probably use the
dried broomsedge cuttings from our field that we mow twice a year with a
scythe -- there'd easily be enough to use in place of buying straw bales.
What Husband and I prefer, though, is to devise an edging procedure that is
less labor intensive, effective in preventing the bermuda from running into
the beds, and doesn't involve use of a noisy machine. It's not only the veg
beds that need edging; it's also the ornamental gardens. The likelihood
that we would rejuvenate that much surrounding lawn is very, very,
*extremely* small, as there are other circumstances affecting our longterm
plans for this property.
Keep in mind that I wasn't the one who asked how to get rid of DG. I was
merely responding to Deb Blaithin's post, speculating on the particular
procedure that one might effectively use, and also responding to your
suggestions. Incidentally, you haven't answered my question about whether
you've actually tried your suggestions and what were the specifics....
Pat
That reminds me of something I heard of and then tried a good many years ago. I
got some used printing plates from a newspaper, (luckily my daughter works for
one and got me some without ink on them) These are aluminum sheeting stuff. I
cut them in 2 lengthwise. Each would be the size of a 1/2 sheet of newsprint. I
put these in the ground around the garden. It worked for quite a while, but as
my garden is 100' x 50' it was tedious and I didn't do a very good job and
eventually they moved up and out of the soil. and were destroyed by the
lawnmower if I didn't catch them first. Newspapers recycle their aluminum, but
would at least sell them to you at the recycling price, or give them to you for
good will.
susan
Patricia Ruggiero wrote:
> Yes I've done it. Specifics, WHat have I given you already??
> bille
I was thinking of a specific *situation* -- you know, most of the
information we exchange on this list is anecdotal: someone describes a
problem they had and how they solved it. I was wondering about the
specifics of your Ca + manure, etc. remedy. What problem did you have? How
big was the area? What was the offending plant? pH and nutrients of the
soil before and after? How long did the procedure take? How well did it
last? Those sorts of "specifics."
Pat
Behalf Of Patricia Ruggiero
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 6:57 PM
To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: ~^~^~ That dastardly grass...~^~^~
> Yes I've done it. Specifics, WHat have I given you already??
> bille
I was thinking of a specific *situation* -- you know, most of the
information we exchange on this list is anecdotal: someone describes a
problem they had and how they solved it. I was wondering about the
specifics of your Ca + manure, etc. remedy. What problem did you have?
....crabgrass
How
big was the area?
.............1000's of ft^2
pH and nutrients of the
soil before and after? ............... Anybody's guess
How long did the procedure take? ................ months
How well did it
last? ............ well
