Where do you live? That would help narrow down possible species. Also, is
it one true, compound leaf with five leaflets, or five actual leaves? True
leaves have a bud at the base of the stem, leaflets do not. And how are the
leaflets arranged? Palmately? (like the fingers of your hand radiating out
from the palm) That would be the arrangement of the leaflets on a
blackberry.
As to being fruitless - here in Oregon, the native blackberry, Rubus
ursinus, has separate male and female vines. If you didn't see the flowers
on the male vines, you might never know they bloomed at all - no stems are
left after the blooms drop. Have you watched the vines you have closely
enough to know that they have NEVER bloomed, or could you have missed blooms
that came on early and disappeared quickly after bloom?
-Lon Rombough
Grapes, unusual fruits, writing, more, at http://www.hevanet.com/lonrom
----------
Is there such a thing?
There's this plant that pops up in various places on our property: among the
ornamentals, in the black raspberry patches, in the blackberry patches, at
the edges of the wooded areas.
At first glance you might mistake it for a blackberry bush. A second look
shows some differences: the stem is square, and ridged vertically; and
leaves have 5 sections instead of 3.
These things, or at least the ones we haven't cut down, have never produced
a flower or a fruit.
Can't find them in any of my reference books. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Pat
> the stem is square, and ridged vertically;
Square stem says mint family to me.
Carol
I should also have mentioned that the stem has stickers (thorns?) like
blackberry. The 5-section composite leaf is not, to my knowledge,
characteristic of mint
Behalf Of C. F.
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 11:03 PM
To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: False blackberry?
> the stem is square, and ridged vertically;
Square stem says mint family to me.
Carol
You won't see fruit if you have been removing the canes every year.
Blackberries typically grow the canes the first year, then bloom on those
canes the next year. So if you have been cutting them all off, you won't
see any bloom or fruit.
My money is on the plants being blackberries - everything you have said
sounds like it.
-Lon Rombough
Grapes, unusual fruits, writing, more, at http://www.hevanet.com/lonrom
----------
To Ron and Harold, thanks for helping. I'm located in the piedmont area,
central Virginia, zone 7.
The stems have thorns.
I have the leaves of both plants here in front of me, lest I make a mistake
in using the technical terms to describe the leaves.
The leaf of the "false" blackberry is arranged like the leaf of the "true"
blackberry. The true leaf has three sections: one at the tip, and two below
it; these two meet (are opposite).
The false leaf has two groups of two opposite leaves, one group below the
other, and both are below the tip section.
The false plants grow about the same height as the true plants.
Ron, as for our never seeing them blossom -- we didn't pay close attention
last year (our first gardening season here) and then the drought burned ALL
the caneberries, everywhere around here. This year we've been cutting or
yanking them out of the ornamental beds. We've been keeping an eye on those
at the edges of the wooded areas or those mixed in with the stands of wild
blackberry, to see what they are planning on doing, but I realize we haven't
been as vigilant as needed to have detected an early and quick blooming
period. Right now they just keep getting taller, no sign of fruit;
meanwhile the wild blackberries have set fruit, which is just beginning to
ripen.
Harold, are you saying these might be wild roses? Now that would be nice (I
think?)
Pat
Patricia Ruggiero wrote:
produced
> a flower or a fruit.
The Rubus Genus ia huge, Maybe 500 species? I have seen a few dozen of
them at USDA in Corvallis Oregon. Some of those differ greatly from
Raspberry and blackberries, but I do not recall any with square stems. I
will first guess that it is not Rubus. The wild thornless blackberry of
England flowers but the frost killed the fruit before they could ripen.
Crosses were main in greenhouses to get our Thornness blackberries.
If it ever flowered we would examine them for trais of the rose
family flowers. Since plants are usually identified by the flowers, we
have little to go on. In which State is this plant?
--
Harold Eddleman Ph.D. Microbiology/Genetics mailto:indbio@disknet.com
26 kilometer west of Louisville KY in Palmyra IN a rural farming area
German for Beginners = http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/ger.htm.
LearnGerman@eGroups.com is a mail list which helps beginners, students,
historians, and genealogists learn German. Mail your questions today.
Click mailto:LearnGerman-subscribe@eGroups.com and then press
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caneberry@onelist.com is devoted to Raspberry, Blackberry, Gooseberry and
other fruits which grow on canes.
Several ways to get rid of blackberries. 1. Keep cutting them off as fast
as they show above ground until the roots are exhausted (you HAVE to be
diligent - let them get even 6 inches tall and they will regain strength in
the roots). (penning a goat in the area works well - they keep the new
shoots nipped off, but you do have to take care of the goat). 2. Dig them
out every time you see one. Get ALL the roots or they will re-sprout from
any piece left (think of a big, thorny dandelion). 3. Use Roundup in the
fall, just before they go dormant - it is taken down into the roots as the
plant goes dormant and it never comes back in the spring. Yes, I know it's
not organic, but the blackberries we have here on the west coast can drive
you to desparate measures.
-Lon Rombough
Grapes, unusual fruits, writing, more, at http://www.hevanet.com/lonrom
----------
Of course (picture me smacking my forehead) !
I've grown red raspberries, so I know about the phenomenon of fruiting on
the previous year's canes. But I've never grown blackberries, just picked
them wherever they were available in the wild, and NEVER paid attention to
how they grew -- didn't think to extrapolate from the raspberry to the
blackberry. When we noticed these things coming up hither and yon, and no
blossoms appeared, we yanked them out.
Well, we still have various stands of them around the property, and I will
be much nicer to them now, in anticipation of a pleasant treat next summer.
By the way, any comments on how to manage the trailing blackberry vines?
(see my previous message) They are roaming all over the place, going places
where they ought not to be, for their own good....
Thanks again, both of you, for steering me in the right direction (no more
random trailing for me!)
Pat
Behalf Of Lon J. Rombough
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 5:54 PM
To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: [caneberry] False blackberry?
You won't see fruit if you have been removing the canes every year.
Blackberries typically grow the canes the first year, then bloom on those
canes the next year. So if you have been cutting them all off, you won't
see any bloom or fruit.
My money is on the plants being blackberries - everything you have said
sounds like it.
-Lon Rombough
Grapes, unusual fruits, writing, more, at http://www.hevanet.com/lonrom
----------
those
> at the edges of the wooded areas or those mixed in with the stands of wild
> blackberry, to see what they are planning on doing, but I realize we
haven't
(I
Lon
On the odd occasion I've got this desperate (in my case its usually
sycamore seedlings that have managed to get several inches through
the regularly cut back stumps and are trying to push over walls,
house etc) I use ammonium sulphamate since it breaks down to ammonium
sulphate and the end result is just a crop of chickweed or nettles
that I can get rid of easily. More and more studies seem to show that
roundup residues are around for much longer than anyone thought
kathryn
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:13:32 -0700
From: "Lon J. Rombough"
3. Use Roundup in the
fall, just before they go dormant - it is taken down into the roots as the
plant goes dormant and it never comes back in the spring. Yes, I know it's
not organic, but the blackberries we have here on the west coast can drive
you to desparate measures.
I am surprised at you, Lon. Roundup is filled with nasty chemicals. It's
not the worst thing you can use on a garden by a long shot but it's bad
enough. I've never gotton close enough to the stuff to know if I react to
it but I know plenty of people who get very ill from it.
I'm in Northern Calif and the Himalaya blackberries fill our yard too.
They are pretty easy to control with a little dilligence. There is no need
to EVER resort to a toxic chemical. EVER.
Simply pull the berries you don't want out by the roots. That's it. No
roots, no plant. They're not like bermuda grass that responds to a good
root pulling by thanking you for helping it to reproduce.
The Himalayas are the best tasting so we keep them around on purpose.
They're out by a back fence. We keep them tied to the fence and in
control. You have to cause the stems can get 2" thick or more with sharp
thorns and they root anywhere they touch the ground.
They are easily spread by seed so little ones will come up everywhere. 3
or 4 times a year, go over your yard and simply dig up the baby
blackberries. We get about 2 dozen babies a year (5500sf). Not that big a
deal.
If you miss one and it gets to be a couple feet long, it's not too late.
This is easy to do when they come up in desirable bramble berry patches.
Cut it down to the ground and dig up the roots if you can. If you can't,
just keep cutting the stems off when they appear. It will die eventually.
If you've got the ones that look like they came from a cheezy horror flick
(the revenge of the himalaya blackberries!) you'll have a harder job but
not too hard. Again, just cut the vines off at the base. This requires
more than clippers but the stems aren't as hard as tree branches the same
size. Dig out the roots or continue to cut the stems. It's not a
prolonged affair. They're aren't that hard to kill. You can use a
lawnmower to help you out too if they are placed appropriately.
We have species blackberries too and they don't seem to self seed and they
are much easier to kill than the Himalayas. Just cut them down once.
It's bermuda grass that's the real horror in my yard. I barely blink at
blackberries.
Cyndi
_______________________________________________________________________________
Oakland, California Zone 9 USDA; Zone 16 Sunset Western Garden Guide
Chemically sensitive/disabled - Organic Gardening only by choice and neccessity
_______________________________________________________________________________
"There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman
something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com
http://www.tikvah.com/
_________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/
Crazy fools that we are we have slowly been getting rid of the himalayan
blackberries in our yard. They are slowly disappearing and much easier to
deal with than the blasted morning glory that keeps encroaching from three
of our five neighbors. We dug the blackberries initially and them laid on
very thick woodchips and now we just yank out any canes that do show up.
But, I love blackberries and have no fondness for rasps so we planted
marionberries and boysenberries. (That's the crazy part...yanking some,
planting others.)
Well, marions and boysens are very vigorous. We tied them up on a two wire
system (perfecting our methods since they're young still) and we
ruthlessly prune them...cut out many canes and choose only the best for
next years fruiting. They sucker like crazy as has been mentioned so we
will be able to give as mnay people as ever want new berry plants :-)
Staying on top of them is key...Regular pruning during the season is less
time consuming then letting them get out of control and then trying to
whack your way through :-)
btw, I'm eating marions and boysens now and they are good.
Funny, one of the native trailing dewberries has shown up in our yard.
Our native dew berries taste quite good imho. They are also gentle and do
not rampantly take over everything like the himalayans. I'm encouraging
the dew berry and maybe the birds will bring more :-)
eliza
I haven't heard of Ammonium sulphamate. Is that in some new commercial
product, or where do you get it. I gather that is kills vegetation.
Kris
FWIW, I don't use Roundup very often, and never around the garden. But there
are areas where I either have to use Roundup or spend an extra two or three
years digging and tilling to be sure the blackberries are all out. I just
don't have that kind of time or energy.
-Lon Rombough
Grapes, unusual fruits, writing, more, at http://www.hevanet.com/lonrom
----------
