Hi Doug! We have lots of apple trees and have never sprayed any of them.
There's an occasional worm, occasional scab, but nothing to worry about. I
think this is because we have been farming and gardening organically for the
entire 19 years we've lived here. Things are pretty much in balance and the
birds take care of most problems. Maybe someone on the list will have a
better answer for you, but all I can say is keep improving your soil (we use
LOTS of manure) and staying away from pesticides and herbicides and
gradually your apples will improve.
I also think picking up the apples likely helps as someone suggested. We
make cider each year and give all the bad apples to the hogs, plus graze the
sheep below the trees in the orchard and they clean up everything left.
Linda Fink
linda@fink.com in Western Oregon
"Life In The Goat Lane" http://fink.com/goatlane
Rob Loach wrote:
Rob, I don't have much advice, but I just want you to know that I will
support your choice once you have all the facts. I'm sure you know about
making a 'Shroud' out of fine netting, and the basic Garlic and Pepper
spray.
I also bet that the Bio-Oragnics guy can help you with predator
inssects if you know exactly what you are having trouble with.
Good luck, and I hope to hear some good news on it later, my apple tree
should have it's first apples next year and I don't want to loose them
ll like I did with the peaches this year.
--
The Image Mill
Complete Graphics and WEB Service
Featuring GIF89a Animations
http://www.TheImageMill.com
I *know* that on our organic list that this question will sound
"heretical", but I must ask it now. Has anyone had success in getting
nice, non-wormy apples without spraying the trees with insecticide? My
5-in-1 apple tree has its first apples this year, and if I spray it, now
is the time--or it will be too late. However, this afternoon I was
looking at the tree and saw that it has *lots* of ladybugs on it. If I
spray the tree, I'm sure that it will kill the ladybugs too, which I
don't want to do. Please help me with advice so that I know what to do.
Thanks in advance.
Rob
-=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-
Rob Loach in Greenville SC (zone 7)
rdloach@juno.com
"All the days of the afflicted are bad:, but a cheerful heart has a
continual feast." Proverbs 15:15
-=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=- -=*=-
I have apple trees here in zone 6, and I grow organically. I use a
spray of horticultural oil just before bud break, and an organic fruit
tree spray (from the Garden's Alive catalog) after fruit set. Other
than that, I use sticky traps when necessary- and some years it is not
necessary. There are always a few apples that will have damage, but not
usually more than one out of every ten. Other than that, I check daily
for web worms and other beasties during the spring. Those I find I just
smash with a stick (very organic!). And I try to keep the worst pests-
the local deer hordes- away from the trees.
Some things about apples:
1. Don't try to grow apples that are not suited to your growing zone
and soil conditions. Apples that are "happy" with the area they are in
get less damage. It is usually better to get trees from a nursery in
your area than order from a catalog, unless you are sure the trees are
really suited to your growing conditions.
2. Don't plant an apple orchard. A large field of apple trees, like
any other monocrop, takes more damage than trees that are separated, or
planted with other types of trees. Insects will still cross-pollinate
trees that are a mile apart.
3. Every year is different. It is usually best to wait and see what
problems show up and treat them than to spray for everything that might
show up. Of course, that means you have to keep watch.
4. Put up bluebird houses. Bluebirds seem to love all of the nasty
bugs that hang around apple trees.
Or then again, maybe I've just been lucky and the really nasty bugs just
haven't found me yet!
Ada Davis
in Northwest Arkansas
Hello to all,
When I read queries such as the recent one about spraying to get "nice"
apples, I wonder...
Do you know which insects you are interested in controlling ?
Plum curculio, apple maggot, coddling moth, spider mite, scale ???
My family has a variety of fruit trees that we have given rather random
management over the last 10 years... we keep saying that this will be the
year of the fruit trees... i.e. the year where we monitor them very
carefully, documenting all the phenostages, identifying all insects, pests
and beneficials, thin the fruits carefully, plant nectar sources to
attract parasitic wasps, add a bird bath to attract birds, monitor growing
degree days...
I think finally this actually is the year... I purchased an excellent book
"The Orchard Almanac" last fall that describes in detail ecological
management of
orchards... we had applied a dormant oil spray every year until I read
this
book... the book bluntly states that one should never spray anything
including dormant oil unless you are targeting a specific insect that
you know is a problem... we have never had a problem with scale or
anything else that is controlled by dormant oil so I will not spray any
more dormant oil until a problem presents itself...
I can't wait to get home this weekend to look at my apple trees that
apparently are in full bloom...
Joel
Hi Ada. This caught my eye, since my parent's house where I grew up
is part of an old apple orchard.
I'm interested in the bluebird house! Can you tell us how to build one?
Personally, I have never seen one. :(
Peg in Cincinnati
Rob Loach wrote:
Please Rob, there is no need to spray with anything that might kill the
ladybugs, even so called "natural" pesticides such as pyrethrum and rotenone.
Garlic spray will repel pests, and if mixed with a foliar plant food can be
applied late in the afternoon when the plant stomatta are opening, when they
can be absorbed fully. This makes the garlic "systemic" and does a very good
job of repelling plant destroying insects for as long as a month or two.
Repeated applications don't hurt, but are not always necessary. Two or three
treatments in a season are usually sufficient. Garlic applications are "soft"
on beneficials. Plant habitat crops to "house" both beneficials and alleged
pest insects, both to maintain beneficial insect populations and to give pest
insects an alternate food source while the garlic is protecting your crops.
You can also use the Apple Maggot Traps mentioned in a previous post, Tree
Tanglefoot around the trunk, and sticky traps with appropriate pheromones to
trap adult moths, aphids and other flying insects. The existing ladybug
population will do a very good job on many common pests, but there are other
commercially available predator and parasitic organisms which can target
specific pest species. If you know what you are up against, it's not too hard
to prescribe treatment. If you don't kill off the beneficials, the chances
are very good that you won't need to introduce much more in following years.
Happy Gardening,
Eric W. Acosta - Director
Biocontrol Network
Bio-rational Alternatives for a Small Planet
America Online: ebugs@aol.com URL http://www.usit.net/BICONET
******************************************************
Rob Loach wrote:
This is in reply to Rob's question about spraying for apple "worms".
Apple worms are the caterpillars of codling moths which lay their eggs
on apple blossoms. They need to be prevented at blossom time: just
before the blossoms open, hang an uncapped plastic jug containing a
banana peel, a cup of sugar and a cup of vinegar, in the apple tree; the
moths will be attracted to the bait and drown.
Apple maggots burrow
into ripening apples; they can be attracted to bright red spheres coated
with tree tangle-foot. Hang the spheres in your tree after the blossoms
fall.
Ellen
Joel wrote:
> ... I purchased an excellent book
> "The Orchard Almanac" last fall that describes in detail ecological
> management of
> orchards...
Sounds like a great book... can you post complete info on it? We are
planning to put in a lot of fruit trees at our community land and are
somewhat orchard-challenged.
Also, are your family's trees interplanted with other types of native
trees? Has anyone else planted fruit trees in this way? Our garden area
is in a valley which gets a lot of fog during the winter, and creates a
hard frost in which all the neighboring farmers have told us fruit trees
won't survive. But, the rest of the property is wooded and on a south
facing ridge which slopes down to the valley. We thought we could put in
fruit trees along the edges of these woods, on higher ground than the
valley. Other apple-orcharders (this area is big on apple growing) have
told us it would be OK to plant in this area, but they have no experience
of interplanting. We wanted to do more of a permaculture-forest garden
where we would not have to have a monoculture of fruit trees growing on our
hillside. Does anybody have any input about doing this?
= Lee =
==================================
Lee A. Flier
lflier@mindspring.com
Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A.
Lee Flier wrote:
> Thanks for this advice! We are fortunate in that our county has a ton of
> apple growers who can sell us stock that has been proven to work here.
Yes- that is usually the best thing to do. The catalog folks will be
happy to sell you anything in their catalog. Apples, however, often
have finicky preferences. Some of my favorite cooking apples love New
York but think Arkansas is just too far south! They don't grow well
here, so I doubt they would like Georgia any better!
How close you plant to other trees depends on the type of trees.
Usually, dwarf trees can be 15 feet apart, semi-dwarf about 20-25 feet,
and full size trees should be 30 feet apart. However, it you plan to
plant near trees like large oaks, then consider the root systems. I try
to keep fruit trees at least 40-50 feet from oaks and walnuts.
About 4 years ago, I had a crabapple tree in my yard attacked by fire
blight. At the time I was in a cast and on crutches, so was unable to
properly take care of it. Two apple trees within 30 feet of the crab
caught the disease and died, but the apples in the garden 150 feet away
were fine. That is why separation of trees, where possible, is a good
idea.
I now hav apple trees planted with cherry, plum, and pear trees. While
they have some of the same pest problems, the mixed crop seems to
confuse some of the other pests. I don't have anything under or near
the trees except clover, dandelion, etc. which attracts pollinators. I
don't know how much shrubs would compete for root space and nutrients.
As for sunlight- most fruit trees like sun, but do okay along the edge
of a forested area as long as they are not "shaded out" by taller
trees. Usually the growers in your area, or an Agri College, can give
you more specific info on the trees that do well in your area.
There's a post coming, Lee....
Ada
Ada wrote:
Thanks for this advice! We are fortunate in that our county has a ton of
apple growers who can sell us stock that has been proven to work here.
> 2. Don't plant an apple orchard. A large field of apple trees, like
> any other monocrop, takes more damage than trees that are separated, or
> planted with other types of trees. Insects will still cross-pollinate
> trees that are a mile apart.
Wow... I guess you've at least partially answered my questions in my last
post. I suspected that. But, how much sunlight do they need and how close
can you have them to other types of trees? Also have you planted other
understory shrubs underneath them?
> 4. Put up bluebird houses. Bluebirds seem to love all of the nasty
> bugs that hang around apple trees.
This is great advice! Some kinds of bluebirds are having some problems
surviving in North Georgia and we are being encouraged to put up houses for
them anyway. Now all we have to do is figure out how a bluebird house is
different from other birdhouses...
Thanks for all the great tips!
= Lee =
==================================
Lee A. Flier
lflier@mindspring.com
Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A.
Hello to all!
A note to all considering growing Apples - there are some wonderful new
disease resistant varieties now available from specialist nurseries. These
do not require any spraying for disease (Apple scab, etc.) although you
will still need to control the bugs. I'm growing 'Nova Spy', other
cultivars are 'Jonafree', 'Liberty', and 'Freedom'. granted, they
probably won't have the flavour or the cachet of the Heirloom varieties,
but they're still a move in the right direction!
Bernadette
Hello. I just bought a house and I want to plant some fruit trees.
Most people say it is hard to grow apples organically. I really want to
try to grow apples. I am not sure exactly what varieties I want (at
least two), but I'm sure some varieties are better than others (as far
as less disease, less insect damage, etc). Anyone out there growing
apples? What kind do you have? I know I want semi-dwarf. Other than
that I am open for suggestions. I am in zone 7a (South NJ).
Also, Am I correct in thinking that now is a good time to plant fruit
trees? I also want to try many different types of fruit (paw paw,etc),
but I thought at least I can get the apple trees established this fall.
Thanks,
Irene
PS This isn't going to be a huge orchard. Maybe 4 trees (2 each
variety). I will probably interplant herbs and flowers to attract
beneficials. If you know of particular herbs or flowers to use, please
let me know.
Irene wrote:
> Hello. I just bought a house and I want to plant some fruit trees.
> Most people say it is hard to grow apples organically.
Hi Irene, Apples do have a lot of problems but I think they can
be grown organically. The first 4-5 years we grew apples we lost
most of the trees, then we switched to different varieties and
improved our methods. The result is that our trees have produced
well for the last few years. Also, I've noticed some wild trees
which produce reliably without any care. This indicates that
growing organic apples is indeed possible. Anyway, here is a list
of the apples which we are growing (Oregon).
Liberty
Akane
The following apples are not as vigorous, but are growing well
here.
Freedom
Hudson's Golden Gem
Prima
William's Pride
Spartan
Sweet Sixteen
Assuming that varieties are matched to their location, then all that
remains is routine care. For this area we spray a dormant oil in
the winter and sometimes in early spring. The oil is mixed with a
table spoon of baking soda per gallon to control fungus/mildew growth.
Dormant oil is considered organic, not sure about the baking soda.
In early spring we put out coddling moth traps and that gets most
of our worms. For the deer we grumble and share. When the tree is
first planted we use grass barricades and mulch. I've not found any
great benefit to staking, fertilizing, or regular watering.
Some people claim that you have to keep the area around apples clean
so the pests can not breed and overwinter. We have never done this,
but we do pick up all the drops and cut out any disease that is visible.
The apples are just ripening here and it is difficult to walk around
without picking one and munching
----------
Jeff Owens (kowens@teleport.com) Zone 6-7 Permaculture
Underground house, solar energy, reduced consumption, no TV
A good tip for apple trees, something I did for my wife's birthday present -
four apple trees - was to plant them in the usual way - a little bonemeal
under the roots, and then about a foot from the trunk, dig a small trench
say six inches deep around the tree and plant some worms from the compost
heap placing above them a little bit of kitchen waste-salad type waste, some
composted waste, a little soaked newspaper and the rest of the topsoil.
These worms should be fairly happy in this situation and can achieve a
symbiotic relationship with the trees to their mutual benefit. Sounds
airy-fairy but actually gives a tremendous and lasting boost to the trees.
The worms mine essential minerals from the subsoil and everyone is happy -
even the deer who are kind enough to prune the trees for us.
Ray
Scottish Highlands.
We have a number of apple trees gone wild on our property that we would like
to tame. The trees are about 20 feet tall and close to 25 years old. I would
welcome advice on how severely we can prune back these trees, and whether it
is best to do this in the fall or spring.
Thanks,
Marie
You don't say where you are located, geographically. That would
help. From your addy it looks like you are in Canada. How far north
are you? Our resident Gardens' apple orchard person is Arnhild, in
Norway... if she's listening.
In our area, we prune the apple trees in the late winter or very
early spring. For us, that's typically in March, before they break
dormancy. A 25 year old apple tree might have reached it's peak of
good apple bearing years. Do you have any orchard people in your
area with whom you could consult? These trees may need some drastic
pruning to shape them correctly. If they are good apples, it would
be worth it but you're going to have to scurry.
--
Linda, gardening in NW Ohio near Toledo / Lake Erie (USDA Zone 5)
Metrofarm known as Blue Clay Plantation
llbs@mail.accesstoledo.com
In a message dated 4/16/01 5:53:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
nitwits@SYMPATICO.CA writes:
It is best for the health of the tree to not remove more than 1/3 of the
total volume of the tree, either by thinning it out or by pruning it back.
When they are dormant is the best time, but if they have already leafed-out
or blossomed, they can still be pruned with subsequent loss of fruit. It
won't hurt the tree.
Glenn
Hi Marie ... another fruit grower speaking here :) - just back on list so I
have not looked up in archive if anything has been discussed about this
subject while I was away?
But all Glen said is right - and I can maybe supply him a bit?
But the first and maybe best advice I will give you is to go to a library
or a book store and find a little book with good illustrations on this
subject
How much:
- not prune more than 1/3 ... if you do it more the tree will use so much
energy on regrowth that there will be little energy left for bear fruit -
and then it will take 3-4 years before there are balance between growth and
bearing. So in a way it is the growers choice - but balance is always best.
Time:
In fact we here say that pruning *can* be done *anytime of the year* - but
depending on what time we prune the trees react different in how much they
react with regrowth. You get most regrowth by pruning in the dormant period
of winter - and then come pruning in springtime. Pruning just after
blossomtime can cause you get less yield, but is possible and it is better
to do it anytime than not to prune!
in fall:
If growth is much to much we here in Europe have these advises: cut down
and replant on a weaker rootstock - or prune in fall like in September when
leafs are still green and for some late varieties it will be before picking
time! In a smaller garden it might be more parctical to do it right after
picking time. Be aware that all pruning during growth period can be more
risky regarding some pest that need a wound in wood to infect.
summer pruning:
If there are a lot of 'water-shoots' in the tree these and some other first
year shot can b e taken away by summer pruning (July-August) to open the
tree - give it more air and light.
AIR and LIGHT are the most important to think about when you prune.
Good luck .. now I am going out to prune as well - I prune for months ....
Arnhild - Hardanger in Norway
Hello Laura,
If your apple trees were healthy when planted, my guess is that lack of
water rather than nutrients is the factor that is most limiting their
growth.
Were the trees bare root when you planted them ? How did you prepare the
planting area(s) ?
Young trees have limited root systems (particularly if planted bare root)
and regular watering can make a huge difference... water is the "key" that
unlocks many biological and chemical processes...
My guess is that the slope where trees are planted is steep enough that not
all of the precipitation that falls on this area is captured...
I recommend that you beef up the mulch under trees and then water them
whenever you have a week without rain... when you water, make sure that you
water them deeply... if you will use a hose to apply the water, have your
kids calculate how long to run the hose to apply 5 gallons of water :->...
Joel
Joel Gruver
Dept of Soil Science
NC State University
jgruv@hotmail.com
_________________________________________________________________
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Laura McKenzie wrote:
Laura
I was a few times here when I was pruning professionally been asked to
look at apples growing in approximately forest clearing conditions and
all seemed to be really struggling with the low light and possibly also
with competition from the neighbours or generally poor fertilty. If you
are going to try this in your property I should be very doubtful of the
possibility of your dwarfs being able to cope with such rugged
conditons. After all, the wild apple trees you mention would be on their
own roots and so much more able to fight for the goodies.
I certainly think you are likely to be much more pleased with the
results if you got some trees on a more vigorous stock for this purpose,
though even they will need a few seasons of regular feeding and mulch to
get properly established. Meanwhile while your dwarfs are sure to do
much better left to receive regular TLC in the main garden..
I am willing to bet part of his success is due to having really healthy
well-fed trees either from a naturally highly fertile soil or from
regular well-planned feeding. Properly fed trees and people alike tend
to have high disease immunity and resist many diseases and even pests
that the sickly ones fall prey to.
Moira
--
Tony & Moira Ryan,
Wainuiomata, North Island, NZ. Pictures of our garden at:-
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cherie1/Garden/TonyandMoira/index.htm
NEW PICTURES ADDED 4/Feb/2004
Laura McKenzie wrote:
> Meant to add something. I've been hesitant to put nitrogen on the trees
> because I nearly killed all my cherries with fire blight when I put too much
> nitrogen on them about 9 years ago!Laura
This would be a classic case of what damage can be done to a tree's
disease immunity by feeding an excess of just one element. Nitrogen is
particularly notorious for stimulating soft sappy growth which pests and
diseases really love, but too much of such elements as potassium,
magnesium or phosphorus can have almost equally direful results.
With chemical feeding lack of balance in the plants' food is quite hard
to avoid and is no doubt a large part of why conventional growers always
seem so concerned about disease control. Organic growers however see
much less disease if they stick to natural feeding methods which depend
on letting the microherd pick its own preferred diet from recycled
organic matter, especially compost made from a rich variety of
ingredients supplemented by suitable mulches, (particularly for trees
mulches with a high content of ramile wood are the best). Mature trees
with a well established branch framework and vigorous root system don't
usually even need much compost but can subsists happily almost entirely
on just a mulch of ramile wood chips or the mould produced when piles of
twigs and small branches rot down.
With these materials for the soil organisms to work on you are unlikely
to encounter any sort of deficiency/excess problem.
Moira
I question the need for any fertilzer for any trees.
Bob Ewing permafrog@hotmail.com wrote: Greetings, it is best = not to add fertilizer when first planting an apple
tree or any other fruit tree. For apples, cocompanion planting chives can help. There are many plants which form a guild or community with apple tree= s
thus enhancing the health and vigor of the guild members.
Bob Ewing
Bob's Permaculture Bookstore
http://www.powells.com/p= pbs/30156.html
~~~ORGANIC AND GREEN, for a healthy future.~~~
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Greetings, it is best not to add fertilizer when first planting an apple
tree or any other fruit tree. For apples, cocompanion planting chives can
help. There are many plants which form a guild or community with apple trees
thus enhancing the health and vigor of the guild members.
Bob Ewing
Bob's Permaculture Bookstore
http://www.powells.com/ppbs/30156.html
~~~ORGANIC AND GREEN, for a healthy future.~~~
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Okay.. Thanks! So these spores aren't air-borne but rather climb up the
tree through the ground? Very interesting!
Thanks!
Anthony
[mailto:GardeningOrganically@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Leone Booth
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 5:06 PM
To: GardeningOrganically@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [GardeningOrganically] Apple trees
Spots on the apple itself is caused by a fungus called 'Venturia
inaequalis'
Fungus over-winters on the fallen leaves, then the spores shoot up to
the tree again in thr spring time. Two ways to avoid this is to mulch
well to stop the spores reaching the tree, also to use a seaweed spray
on the foliage. Leone
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Spots on the apple itself is caused by a fungus called 'Venturia inaequalis'
Fungus over-winters on the fallen leaves, then the spores shoot up to the
tree again in thr spring time. Two ways to avoid this is to mulch well to
stop the spores reaching the tree, also to use a seaweed spray on the
foliage. Leone
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Hi, I am new to organic gardening and I am trying to find a way to keep
from losing my apple trees. We recently had to cut down two whole trees
due to fire blight. We also had to cut down half of two other trees. I
am worried that since we cut 50% of the tree down that it will not
survive. Is there any thing that we can do to help our trees.
__._,_.___
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Hi, I am new to organic gardening and I am trying to find a way to keep
from losing my apple trees. We recently had to cut down two whole trees
due to fire blight. We also had to cut down half of two other trees. I
am worried that since we cut 50% of the tree down that it will not
survive. Is there any thing that we can do to help our trees.
