billevans on fri 2 apr 04

I think the alleopathic effects are strong when quick succession crops of
rye are grown and tilled under. I know there's a lot of knowledge out there
regarding covercropping undesireable weeds out of existence. SOme of it has
to do w/ starving the weeds for sunlight, as well as alleopathic affect by
the root system, and by the decaying plants that have been turned under.
It surely isn't a quick solution, but one that takes several seasons - if
not years- to get a handle on( gain control over the weeds in question).
bille
Laura McKenzie
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 10:28 AM
To: OGL@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: bermuda too Re: Quack grass control

Thanks Bille. I toasted a bit of bermuda at the top of the garden about two
months ago and then planted rye heavily. If the weather stays cold long
enough it will probably help and next fall I'll be sure to try again and let
the rye get a better foothold. Now that I put 200 feet of ground barrier
between my fence and the neighbors, perhaps I'll beat the bermuda. The
roots can go quite deep though.

Laura
bille

Joel Gruver on fri 2 apr 04

Hello Laura,

Bermuda grass is a warm season perennial and thus has a very different
growing season than cereal rye, a cool season annual.

In central NC cereal rye is heading out right now and will begin senescing
within a month... Bermuda grass has been dormant since last October and will
grow very little this spring until the soil temps (at 4") are over 65 F (~
late April - early May in central NC)

The limited overlap in growth cycles means that even a very dense stand of
cereal rye will not have much suppressive effect on bermuda grass.

Bermuda grass will grow very little in the shade but tries very hard to grow
out from under shade.

When I was farming in NC, I succeeded in keeping bermuda from becoming a
problem in my production fields by combining relatively high tillage
intensity around field borders (my traffic lanes were mostly bermuda),
summer cover crops and a strict policy of roguing Bermuda sprigs whenever I
(or my workers) spotted them in the fields.

Low maintenance no-till approaches to gardening (as recommended by many OGL
list readers) tend to shift weeds from summer annuals like pig weed and
lambsquarters to perennial grasses like quack grass (in the north) and
bermuda (in the south)...

If you notice perennial grases invading, quick action (particularly at
field/bed borders) can minimize the effort required to control them...
diligent prevention of encroachment is much easier than controlling well
established plants.

Joel

Joel Gruver
Dept of Soil Science
NC State University
jgruv@hotmail.com

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Carol Jensen on fri 2 apr 04

--=====================_443177==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:07 02-04-2004, you wrote: >Maybe I should try it on my field bermuda? With enough persistence maybe I'll get lucky? > >I am thinking that if I flame it, smother it and plant sunflowers in the spot I might have SOME luck. Its pretty bad. > That reminds me: is all grass that grows on top of soil Bermuda grass? I have some that came with the vinca minor from my younger daughter. It is no great problem, because there are so few roots and they don't seem very strong. I just yank it up. I tried that on some horrible grass that looked the same in Atlanta and that came up easily too. Carol --=====================_443177==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 04:07 02-04-2004, you wrote:
Maybe I should try it on my field bermuda? With enough persistence maybe I'll get lucky?

I am thinking that if I flame it, smother it and plant sunflowers in the spot I might have SOME luck. Its pretty bad.

That reminds me: is all grass that grows on top of soil Bermuda grass? I have some that came with the vinca minor from my younger daughter. It is no great problem, because there are so few roots and they don't seem very strong. I just yank it up. I tried that on some horrible grass that looked the same in Atlanta and that came up easily too.

Carol --=====================_443177==.ALT--

Laura McKenzie on sat 3 apr 04

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_02FE_01C4198B.A7572030

Thanks, guys, for the notes. How I've handled the problem up till now =
was to pull, pull some more and pull some more. Because the yard next =
door was the source of the problem there was little I could do to stop =
encroachment until I bought a landscaping barrier thing (what it is =
called?... made of plastic) and installed 200 feet of it.

The worst problem is against the rock walls of the raised beds. =
Vinegar does little to help. I'm hoping flaming around the rocks will =
help. I've mulched with several layers of cardboard five years running =
and had a little success each year until more crossed the chainlink =
fence.

Today I double dug two new raised beds. These beds are situated on =
top of the nasty, no topsoil red clay and chirt stuff that only allows =
bermuda to grow (and sparsely). After removing the top 12 inch layer, I =
loosened the soil, put a layer of leaves and then turned the top layer =
upside on top of the layer of leaves. Then I mulched heavily with five =
+ layers of newspaper, added another bunch of leaves and grass clippings =
and I topped it off with real topsoil and hand sifted soil from that =
area. I put the black barrier stuff around the beds as another bermuda =
barrier. I hope this creates something usable :)
A pic of my husband's legs and my youngest children at work on the =
project is found here:
http://home.att.net/~ekyorigins/raisedbeds.jpg

Here is something that (maybe) Joel would find interesting. From the =
forest on the north side has slid in something that has leaves like =
crane's bill but is a perennial and creeps and puts out roots along its =
square stem (twin, opposite and oblate leaves with a tubular, purple =
flower in early spring?). I tried to find the name of it using google =
and after spending much too long gave up. It gets VERY invasive, grows =
VERY fast and has a strong smell when you pull it. At any rate, I've =
noticed that where it grows the bermuda stops dead in its tracks and the =
bermuda recedes as it encroaches. The interesting thing is that its =
easy to pull out and the soil under where it WAS is really good looking! =
I haven't pulled it out of one spot because I'm going to experiment and =
see if it takes out the bermuda before I take it out.

Laura
***************************
Laura's pages for Homeschooling, Gardening, and Genealogy
are found here: http://home.att.net/~ekyorigins
yahoo id: ekyorigins
***************************
------=_NextPart_000_02FE_01C4198B.A7572030

Kimm Miller on sat 3 apr 04

billevans said;
> Possibly rye is alleopathic, as well

My experience is that Field, or Winter, Rye will suppress quackgrass growth
for about 1 year. We have numerous time disked a small field in the fall
where quackgrass was rampant, seeded Winter Rye, allowed it to grow until
spring, and then disked that in and had no quack grass grow in that field
that year, but it was back with a vengeance the following year if we did not
seed another crop of Rye.

Kimm

Margaret Lauterbach on sun 4 apr 04

Stung by Carol's assertion that she would have not let it go to seed, I
started looking further into this quackgrass problem. I have never seen
any seed head on it,yet it marches through bed after bed. It does not have
the typical constriction near the leaf tips, so it's probably not
quackgrass. I've gone through Weeds of the West, and can't find a similar
grass. I may have to see if the County Extension agent can identify
it. They'll tell me Roundup, I know. I may look for that product that
Moira spoke of...Interceptor. It's probably not licensed in Idaho (they
require payment of $150 to license ag products in Idaho -- even if every
other state in the union has approved it. I think it's bureaucratic
extortion). Margaret L

Margaret L
Gardening in Intermountain West and Handicapped gardening
http://www.margaretlauterbach.com

Tony and Moira Ryan on sun 4 apr 04

Laura McKenzie wrote:
> Thanks, guys, for the notes. How I've handled the problem up till
> now was to pull, pull some more and pull some more. Because the yard
> next door was the source of the problem there was little I could do
> to stop encroachment until I bought a landscaping barrier thing (what
> it is called?... made of plastic) and installed 200 feet of it.

> The worst problem is against the rock walls of the raised beds.
> Vinegar does little to help. I'm hoping flaming around the rocks
> will help. I've mulched with several layers of cardboard five years
> running and had a little success each year until more crossed the
> chainlink fence.

Laura
Here in NZ we have a locally produced and organcally approved weedkiller
(Interceptor) - based on pine oil, so I understand. It is approved
because it is a contact weedkiller like vinegar and has I understand
even less effect on the ground.

If used strong enough it is supposed to kill hard things,even woody ones
like gorse, though don't know what its track record is against quake grass.

I wonder if this or any equivalent might be available in the States,
perhaps it would be worth asking.

> Today I double dug two new raised beds. These beds are situated on
> top of the nasty, no topsoil red clay and chirt stuff that only
> allows bermuda to grow (and sparsely). After removing the top 12
> inch layer, I loosened the soil, put a layer of leaves and then
> turned the top layer upside on top of the layer of leaves. Then I
> mulched heavily with five + layers of newspaper, added another bunch
> of leaves and grass clippings and I topped it off with real topsoil
> and hand sifted soil from that area. I put the black barrier stuff
> around the beds as another bermuda barrier. I hope this creates
> something usable :) A pic of my husband's legs and my youngest

Hi Laura
Your husband has nice legs!

I am sure this piece of bed construction should in time yield you a
really good growing area, if you can only keep the dreaded lurgie out,
or at least under control.

This arrangement sounds like the makings of a very nice growing soil,
though it could take a full year before it is sufficintly re-organized
to give its best. From now on one hopes you will not need to disturb it
much again, but can simply continue to build on the good basis you have
established.

I have a rather similar menace to my garden at present as I have somehow
got invaded by convolvulus, but I have gone to some trouble to reduce
the problem as far a possible by digging up the rhizomes as far as I
could at the beginning of the season and now whenever a plant of the
pest so much as peeps above soil it gets vigorously pursued and
extracted. As a result the beds I have treated have cropped very well
this season and none has been overwhelmed, so I like to think I am winning.

> Here is something that (maybe) Joel would find interesting. From the
> forest on the north side has slid in something that has leaves like
> crane's bill but is a perennial and creeps and puts out roots along
> its square stem (twin, opposite and oblate leaves with a tubular,
> purple flower in early spring?). I tried to find the name of it
> using google and after spending much too long gave up. It gets VERY
> invasive, grows VERY fast and has a strong smell when you pull it.
> At any rate, I've noticed that where it grows the bermuda stops dead
> in its tracks and the bermuda recedes as it encroaches. The
> interesting thing is that its easy to pull out and the soil under
> where it WAS is really good looking! I haven't pulled it out of one
> spot because I'm going to experiment and see if it takes out the
> bermuda before I take it out.

Almost certainly a member of the Lamiaceae (Mint family). There is a
vast number of creeping Lamiums and their close relatives, and in warmer
places sometimes Plectranthus, which can easily take over a big area,
but like you say are quite easy to pull out as they root only shallowly.
I don't know your local flora, but I think if you concentrate on looking
up this family you should quite easily find it, very probably under one
of these two genera.

What is indeed most interesting is its apparent allelopathy towards
Bermuda grass, which I have certainly never heard of. It sounds as
though you might be on to something useful. I wonder if anyone else on
the list has come across this.

Moira

--
Tony & Moira Ryan,
Wainuiomata, North Island, NZ. Pictures of our garden at:-
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cherie1/Garden/TonyandMoira/index.htm
NEW PICTURES ADDED 4/Feb/2004

Tony and Moira Ryan on sun 4 apr 04

Carol Jensen wrote:
> At 04:07 02-04-2004, you wrote:

> Maybe I should try it on my field bermuda? With enough persistence
> maybe I'll get lucky?

> I am thinking that if I flame it, smother it and plant sunflowers
> in the spot I might have SOME luck. Its pretty bad.

> That reminds me: is all grass that grows on top of soil Bermuda
> grass? I have some that came with the vinca minor from my younger
> daughter. It is no great problem, because there are so few roots and
> they don't seem very strong.

Carol
Whatever your grass with the overground runners might be it is most
unlikely to be Bermuda grass, which likes much warmer winter climates
than Denmark can provide.

The only other grass I can think of just now with a similar habit is
Kikuyu, but this could not survive Danish winters either.

Ideas someone else??

Moira
--
Tony & Moira Ryan,
Wainuiomata, North Island, NZ. Pictures of our garden at:-
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cherie1/Garden/TonyandMoira/index.htm
NEW PICTURES ADDED 4/Feb/2004

Carol Jensen on sun 4 apr 04

Margaret, I know you cannot dig it up, but someone else could. If it is quack it will have rhizomes that are white and thick enough to see very easily. It will march through bed after bed, yes. If you mulch it will not go so deep (it grown very deep on bare soil, making it real work to dig up!) If you pull it up, the rhizomes will break off, but you can get them later, because this weakens them.

You just need to know what you have first. I have tried the smothering with plastic bit and the roots were just under the plastic, so I think it must be very easy to get rid of for anyone who mulches.

You may have the second type, Margaret, where I have the first type (as in Kimm's post.)

Carol

John D'hondt on mon 5 apr 04

The only thing that comes close is Agropyron repens but I am not sure that
it is this that Carol has in mind.
john

Joel Gruver on tue 6 apr 04

Hello Laura,

Are you familiar with the closely related weeds purple dead nettle and
henbit ?

The following link has a photo of purple dead nettle...
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1964/purdnet.htm

Neither dead nettle or henbit are perennials but both produce purple tubular
flowers very early in the spring, have square stems and are easy to pull up.

I don't think either would suppress bermuda very much because they are both
winter annuals with very little overlap with the active growing season of
bermuda grass.

What time of year did you try spraying bermuda with vinegar ? Bermuda will
certainly not be affected by vinegar (or Roundup) when it is dormant. It
might be temporarily suppressed by vinegar if it was actively growing at the
time of application.

Joel

Joel Gruver
Dept of Soil Science
NC State University
jgruv@hotmail.com

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Carol Jensen on wed 7 apr 04

Carol

Carol Jensen on wed 7 apr 04

> The only thing that comes close is Agropyron repens but I am not sure that
> it is this that Carol has in mind.
> john
But that is quack grass, John, and that doesn't grow at all like bermuda grass. It can have runners several meters down!

Carol

John D'hondt on thu 8 apr 04

It is very unlikely that you would have Bermuda grass in Denmark Carol.
Do you mean several meters down = deep in the soil? Agropyron does that too.
john

> At 00:11 06-04-2004, you wrote:
> The only thing that comes close is Agropyron repens but I am not sure
that
> it is this that Carol has in mind.
> john
> But that is quack grass, John, and that doesn't grow at all like bermuda
grass. It can have runners several meters down!