OK now that I'm learning so much from you all about growing stuff...
here is my other problem. My garden area is in the front yard. But I
have a large back yard. It has some trees back there and it's really
nice, but right now it's completely overgrown with all sorts of
underbrush and a TON of poison ivy. I had an organic landscape guy come
out and look at it, and he said that as much as he hates using
chemicals, there is so much poison ivy that he doesn't think I have a
choice. And I think he was right, I would not want to have to pull it
all out there's so much, and it would probably just come right back.
So, he referred me to another guy who sprayed herbicides to kill it off.
The problem is once it's all dead, I don't want it to come back. And I
also wonder how soon it will even be safe to go back there. The guy
says this herbicide is only harmful for 24 hours, but I'm not sure if I
believe him. Also, isn't poison ivy still potent even after it's dead?
Do I want to be walking around in dead poison ivy and how long do I want
to avoid it?
The other thing is, I assume I have to plant something to smother the
ivy so it won't come back, right? But the thing is I really don't want
to invest in lawn grass. Although I would like something I can walk on
(at least in some parts of the yard), I eventually want to put in other
stuff, like maybe fruit trees and blueberries, flowering shrubs etc.
But that isn't going to happen right away. I won't start doing that
until at least fall and will probably just do the yard a little at a time.
So is there something besides grass that I can plant that is more low
maintenance and will cover the ground quickly so the ivy and stuff won't
come back? And how soon can I plant it? It has to cover a pretty big
area (like around 75x90 feet) and I'm not rich so it can't be too
expensive either! But if it would make the soil better instead of
taking away from it like grass does, it seems that would be good.
Thanks in advance for any advice...
Tara
Welcome to the List, Tara,
I was away all weekend and am just now glancing at my email. I hope to =
read
all the posts tonight, but right now I'll say a few things about the
herbicide that was used to kill your PI.
First of all, find out what it was. Get the exact name from the man who
sprayed it. Also ask him how long it survives in the soil, and what =
effects
it produces in anyone handling the sprayed material. Expect that he =
won't
know the answers, or at least not completely.
Next, no matter what he tells you, Google that herbicide and find out =
all
you need to know about it from other sources. If you get info from .com
sites, be sure to balance it with info from .gov sites; better yet, get =
info
from environmental and pesticide alert sites. I don't have URLs for any =
of
them handy, but probably others on this list can provide some links.
I'd say don't handle the "dead" PI until you know with what it was =
sprayed,
and then wear protective clothing. As for its deadness, I'm not certain
what dead means for PI. The plant might appear dead but the urishiol =
(the
oil that causes the irritation) might still be active, and I don't know =
its
lifespan. Perhaps someone else does...?
While I'm gardening this afternoon I'll mull over your question about =
what
to plant to keep the PI at bay. I know I have a substantive article =
about
PI, will hunt it up tonight. More later --
Pat
I'm not sure that it ever does get inactivated. If it burns, you can
get it from the smoke. you can get it in the winter, and so forth,
maybe someone else knows more.
susan
Hi all,
Found one reference from Harry Hoitnek that a good solid month is time
enough to break down any plant toxin - he was specifically talking about
jugulone. I also read that without oxidation, urishiol can last for
years. but in any aetrated compost pile it will be oxidized. i always
thought it was an oil, but it's not it's actually a mixture of phenolic
compounds called catechols, potent benzene ring compounds with a long
side-chain of 15 or 17 carbon atoms. all contained in an oily resin for fun.
The references I saw on composting recommended hot composting and they
also recommend shredding ! the PI if the stems are thick. However,
small airborne particles can then float around in the air for you to
inhale. the roots have an especially high concentration of urishiol in
them and they would take the longest to completely break down. and add
lots of nitrogen like manure to heat up the pile. plus it depends on how
sensitive you are. If you're not very sensitive, 90% breakdown might be
OK for you. If you're extra sensitive like my husband where one small
patch inevitably spreads and requires 3 weeks of steroids to eliminate
it, then nothing short of 100% breakdown of urishiol will work.
Unfortunately, I think you're on your own if you decide to compost any
new PI. There doesn't seem to be any definitive answer to can you
compost PI.
I might suggest you completely cover the entire area with several layers
of cardboard and those free woodchips you said you could get. My guess
is the herbicide did not kill off the roots. Cardboard can be gotten at
grocery stores, thrift shops where people bring in boxes of clothes to
donate or newly moved in neighbors.
Interesting site
http://www.herbalgram.org/youngliving/herbalgram/articleview.asp?a=959
Deborah Turton - who just removed the old fence an d put in the new
fence of 200 feet through some PI and we didn't get any.
This is a link to a paper from Michigan State University on eliminating
Poison Ivy. If I had this I think I'd step away from organic for a while.
http://web1.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modft/fte15170.html
Kimm
Patricia Ruggiero wrote:
> First of all, find out what it was. Get the exact name from the man who
> sprayed it. Also ask him how long it survives in the soil, and what effects
> it produces in anyone handling the sprayed material. Expect that he won't
> know the answers, or at least not completely.
This is a good idea, thank you! I called and asked him, and this is the
stuff he used:
http://www.pbigordon.com/agricultural/brushmaster.htm
He said it stays in the soil for about 6 weeks. I will try to find out
more about it later.
Well yeah that is what everyone says, that the toxic oil stays active
for a long time. And it really is EVERYwhere in the yard.
> While I'm gardening this afternoon I'll mull over your question about what
> to plant to keep the PI at bay. I know I have a substantive article about
> PI, will hunt it up tonight. More later --
Thank you so much Pat, I hope by next year it will be a beautiful
ORGANIC yard with no more poison ivy or chemicals!
Tara
There are many good ground covers you could use. They are also
called green manure. One that I use is Winter Rye. The other is
_____ vetch. The vetch has been a short but dense choice for me.
Just cut it down and turn it in when you are ready. It is high
nitrogen and good for the soil. If it does get to tall for you just
mow it and put the clippings in your compost.
Someone else will tell you better than I can about the PIe:>)
The very worst thing you could do with PI is to burn it. Since
shredding could cause some urishiol to float around, that would be
just about as bad. An ivy infection in the lungs can I think kill
you, or your down wind neighbors pets and so forth.
Tara wrote:
Read the link supplied by Kimm. You'll learn that your Brushmaster
herbicide is a 2,4-D compound, etc.
> Well yeah that is what everyone says, that the toxic oil
> stays active for a long time. And it really is EVERYwhere in
> the yard.
My sympathies. As most of the folks on this List know, I've been battling
it for several years in various areas of our 7-acre property. (That and
%^#$@# Japanese honeysuckle.)
I work on removal during the winter when I'm wearing heavy clothing to
prevent skin contact with the vines and roots.
It's been a long day, and an even longer evening, and I didn't get to my
file box for that PI article, but will do so tomorrow. For now, it's
bedtime (but Laura is probably still up....!)
Pat
Hello folks,
Perhaps I missed it but I don't think Tara has told us how much sunlight is
received by the area in her yard where the PI was growing.
If the area is really shady her options are much more limited than if the
area receives at least half sun.
Kentucky 31 Tall fescue seed is quite inexpensive and is one of the few
things that will out compete PI if mowed periodically.... a mix of fescue
and white clover would be good for the soil, low maintenance (if mowed
infrequently) and can be smothered with cardboard and wood chip mulch when
Tara decides to expand her garden.
Joel
that's what I thought, so if you have to shred it to compost it, you
can't compost I wouldn't think
susan
I'm with Joel on this one Tara. Even if you didn't have PI to worry about -
and thank goodness we don't here in Ireland, I've battled it once and once
was enough - I would suggest putting down a lawn for the short term anyway
as soon as the weedkiller has broken down sufficiently to allow it. You'll
know when its safe to sow because weeds will start to come back again. It
will control the other weeds and provide somewhere nice to walk and when
you decide to put those fruit trees in you just mulch the area where you
want them to go and plant through the mulch. If you use a mulching mower
you will find that the soil steadily improves under the lawn. Or you can
harvest the clippings for compost material to feed the rest of the garden.
The soil won't improve as fast in the lawn area, and you'll need to be kind
to it and give it back some of its own compost in the future, but it will
help your garden beds round the front. I think that most of us with lawns
on the list use the latter approach - but that's partly because a lot of us
have lawn mowers that pre-date mulching mowers. My own lawn, by the way,
was produced by simply keeping whatever came up in a bare field mowed at
about three inches until only the grasses and clovers were still coming. It
takes a bit over a year to establish a lawn like this in this climate but
you know you have the best adapted grasses for your area.
Like the others I doubt very much whether the roots of the PI are dead - I
don't think this product would kill them unless the contractor had
individually damaged the bark on the plants and brush treated the layer
underneath - so a crop like grass will really get the beastly stuff under
control for you.
But of course, like Joel, I don't know what sort of shade you have. Grass
mostly like light.
kathryn
Joel Gruver wrote:
> Perhaps I missed it but I don't think Tara has told us how much sunlight is
> received by the area in her yard where the PI was growing.
> If the area is really shady her options are much more limited than if the
> area receives at least half sun.
Well a lot of it is shady, there are a lot of trees back there but it
does face south and gets some sun too. I am looking at there right now
(10:30am) and about 2/3 of the yard is in full sun or almost full.
Obviously the part that gets sun changes through the day and none of it
gets full sun all day I don't think, but for several hours anyhow.
Hmmm maybe this is a good idea. I just looked up that type of grass and
it says it's a cool season grass and you shouldn't plant in mid summer.
It will be the dead of August by the time it's OK to plant back there.
Maybe I should just try to keep it mowed and then plant the grass and
clover in the fall? I didn't really want to have a lawn but I can see
your point, at least it will be tough and keep the ivy from coming back!
And now that I know I don't have to dig it up to plant new stuff, I can
just smother it, that will help.
Thank you Joel! You folks are very kind.
Tara
--0-896320200-1118792611=:39359
In future, you might consider renting a herd of goats to eradicate your poison ivy - seriously!
Merry Luskin, Oakland CA
Reference librarian and handspinner
Great site: Librarians' Index to the Internet
http://lii.org
---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!
--0-896320200-1118792611=:39359
PLEASE not soon after it has been treated with poison. Some of
these would get into the milk and affect everything that drank it
adversely. Otherwise I don't know, but have inquired of the goat
list I am on.
Jim wrote:
> Otherwise I don't know, but have
> inquired of the goat list I am on.
I do know a small farmer who is using a few goats to clear some acreage =
of
PI. It's a slow process, she says, but they have already cleared 2-3 of =
her
10 acres.
Of course, it's not quite as simple as turning a couple of goats loose =
on
the PI. One has to have fencing, shelter, food, a water source, and the
occasional veterinary bills. Unless one can borrow a goat or two, for a
small area, and maintain a secure tether.
Pat
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C57201.351612E0
In future, you might consider renting a herd of goats to eradicate your =
poison ivy - seriously!
Merry Luskin, Oakland CA
That is something goats do very well thank you. One of the first goats =
we ever got came from suburbia, from a row of free standing houses with =
quite a big half acre garden each. Most of these gardens were a =
wilderness of green. Just the one garden where they had two goats was =
bare rock and soil with not one blade of grass to be seen, but also no =
bracken, gorse or briars.
john
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C57201.351612E0
John is right. If the pi was treated with herbicides though,
everything I hear from the goat list I am on says, give it a season
to make sure the herbicide is GONE before letting the goats eat it.
James Allan wrote:
> John is right. If the pi was treated with herbicides though,
> everything I hear from the goat list I am on says, give it a season
> to make sure the herbicide is GONE before letting the goats eat it.
Goats, that is so funny! Of course I would never let any in my yard now
that it has been sprayed, but if I could, you're right I bet they WOULD
eat everything in the yard! My cats would freak out too! LOL you guys
have some very creative ideas.
Tara
I have said before Jim that I am convinced that the biochemical processes in
all species whether plant, animal, human or prokaryota are too similar to
use any poison at all. Also that any use of poison starts problems. I also
find the use of these poisons obscene and yes, evil.
Many pesticides and herbicides are persistent in the environment for decades
in one way or another. A season is not long enough for safety.
john
Tara,if you think that is funny try a commercial farm importing a
temporary supply of hundreds of chinese ducks to eat up weeds. That
is big business.
lp52nosn wrote:
Moira and I remember visiting our daughter Kate at one time when she was
renting a more-or-less abandoned and almost falling-down old farm
cottage in Otago (southern South Island). (The cottage literally had
see-through walls in places, I remember significant holes through the
walls of the kitchen!)
Anyway this cottage had an abandoned garden, and in order to keep it in
some kind of order, Kate borrowed (or hired, I'm not sure) a goat from a
nieghbour. This goat had a collar and was kept tethered in the garden
where it munched away happily on the wild growth!
Kate I remember said that the one disadvantage of it was that - goats
being both inquisitive and friendly - it always wanted her to be with it
when she was home. If she went indoors, the goat would bleat unhappily!
Tony
--
Tony & Moira Ryan,
Wainuiomata, North Island, NZ. Pictures of our garden at:-
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cherie1/Garden/TonyandMoira/index.htm
NEW PICTURES AND DIAGRAMS ADDED 20/Feb/2005
