Depends on the soil they're planted in.
Some soils just don't have the Ca/ P needed to sustain them, imho... unless
supplemented w/ some kind of "bulbfood"( rich wormy casting filled compost,
bonemeal,etc.).
bille
I can't think of any other reason for them to disappear, they are like
weeds.
Mary Ann
Pat - Does your friend live in the east? If so, did she experience the
very wet spring that folks in the east had? I know that bulbs tend to
rot in wet soil...that's the only thing I can think of right now.
Evelyn
zone 6 MO
--- Patricia Ruggiero
year
Patricia Ruggiero wrote:
> Some neighbors planted daffodil bulbs in the autumn of 2001 and the bulbs
> flowered in spring 2002. They left the foliage to die naturally in place.
> The bulbs did not return in spring 2003. They asked me why.
Hi Patricia,
There is a fly called the narcissus bulb fly. My guess is this is what destroyed
your neighbours' bulbs. The pest probably came in with the bulbs in the first
place. What happens is the fly larvae eat their way into the bulbs and turn them
(the bulbs) into a gooey, disgusting mess. Sometimes some small bulbs will
survive and produce foliage but not many flowers.
The only thing to be done, afaik, is to dig up the surviving bulbs (if any) and
either inspect them carefully, destroy all the larvae found, and replant any
healthy and uninfested bulbs, or (the safer bet, because it's certain some will
be missed), dig up and destroy all bulbs, and when foliage appears from bulbs
that were missed, dig and destroy those also. Do not plant any new narcissus for
at least a year after they're sure all the bulbs are gone, so that the pest will
have a chance to disappear completely. Of course, if many close neighbours also
plant narcissi, this strategy is bound not to work.
Having said that, I've had trouble with this fly, and I've simply resigned
myself to being without ongoing populations of narcissi, because I've planted so
many over the years that it would resemble a Labour of Hercules to try to find,
dig and destroy all of the stragglers! I plant a few more each year (usually a
couple hundred or so) and try to notice which sorts are gone altogether so I can
replace them. Expensive, yes, but I love narcissi. (Tulips of all sorts, on the
other hand, happily survive and multiply in my garden, so I'll take the good
with the bad, bulb-wise, I s'pose...)
hth,
Diane.
Some neighbors planted daffodil bulbs in the autumn of 2001 and the bulbs
flowered in spring 2002. They left the foliage to die naturally in place.
The bulbs did not return in spring 2003. They asked me why.
I've determined that the soil is a sandy loam, so I can eliminate the
possibility that the bulbs drowned in heavy wet clay this past winter.
They said that the bulbs were very small. I'm wondering if that could be
the cause. Perhaps the grower had supplied enough fertilizer so that the
bulbs could send up foliage and bloom stalks their first year, but the bulbs
themselves were too small to accumulate enough nutrition after that and thus
were unable to flower in the following year. Is this the mechanism of bulb
nutrition and flowering?
If so, then is there any likelihood that the bulbs will flower in spring
2004? Seems unlikely to me. After all, how would remaining underground
increase a bulb's strength? Or is there more to bulb growth than I am aware
of?
They say they have mole tunnels in their yard but I told them that moles are
carnivores. I ruled out voles and squirrels in the belief that daffodil
bulbs are poisonous. I can't think of any other reason why their bulbs
failed to flower this past spring.
Any information would be appreciated!
Pat
whose daffodil bulbs in heavy clay soil do return faithfully each year
In a message dated 7/16/03 2:49:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ruggierop@EARTHLINK.NET writes:
<< I ruled out voles and squirrels in the belief that daffodil
bulbs are poisonous. >>
That doesn't mean they didn't eat them, just got sick or died later.
I can't think of any other reason for them to disappear, they are like weeds.
Mary Ann
bille wrote:
> Some soils just don't have the Ca/ P needed to sustain them, imho...
unless
supplemented w/ some kind of "bulbfood"( rich wormy casting filled compost,
bonemeal,etc.).
Good point. These folks are accustomed to adding chemical fertilizers and
using insecticides. Based on that, I'd say it isn't likely that the bulbs
will appear next spring.
I'm working a bit with them on their flower gardens and lawn. First tactic
was to have them come over and see our flower beds (looking good right now),
to compare the fecund growth with their struggling plants. Second tactic
was to find simple ways for them to add organic material to their soil. Two
that they already like are mixing kitchen scraps and some water in the
blender every day or so, to pour directly into the garden without their
having to "fuss" with a compost pile; and newspaper mulch covered with wood
shavings from the husband's hobby.
Pat
I don't really know the answer, as I have the ones that are practically weeks,
and NOTHING eats them. Could it be that they were some exotic kind? and then
what? I don't know.
susan
Patricia Ruggiero wrote:
> Could it be that they were some exotic
> kind?
Nah, I doubt it. I can't remember where they said they bought them but it
was some discount chain store.
Pat
Evelyn wrote:
> Pat - Does your friend live in the east? If so, did she experience the
> very wet spring that folks in the east had? I know that bulbs tend to
> rot in wet soil...that's the only thing I can think of right now.
Yes, they live 3 miles down the road from me, in central Virginia. My
daffodils came up, and I have heavy clay soil. Their soil is lighter and
sandier, drains much better.
Pat
Diane wrote:
> There is a fly called the narcissus bulb fly.
Yuk!
> The only thing to be done, afaik, is to dig up the surviving
> bulbs (if any)
Since I think they plan on improving the soil in this area, they should be
able to root around to try to find the old bulbs and we can determine if
the fly was the cause of the problem. If so, then I'll tell them not to
plant bulbs this autumn. They are considering a daylily and daffodil bed;
they could plant the daylily corms this autumn and wait a year to tuck the
daffodil bulbs in between.
No, no one's nearby. They live in the middle of several acres of wooded
land.
> Tulips of all sorts, on the
other hand, happily survive and multiply in my garden,
Aw gee, sorry to hear that..... (lucky you!)
Pat
I didn't ask them.
Thinking that they had planted them in one corner of the garden, I was going
to hunt for them myself, to see if they were small, nibbled on, or diseased;
but when I saw the extended area where they said they had scattered the
bulbs, I knew it was pointless to start digging....besides which, by that
time, late morning, the temperature was in the 90s and the day was very
humid. There's a point at which I feel the heat penetrating my body and
know that I'm not going to be able to withstand it that day. Today was one
of those days. I spent the rest of the day in my naturally cool, walk-out
basement office.
Pat
Moira wrote:
> I am wondering Pat if that nasty pest the Narcissus fly occurs in your
> part of the world. it is a scourge of bulbs both in Europe and here and
> can certainly destroy bulbs by eating them out during dormancy.
Diane Ridout described this pest and offered a good summary of how to manage
this problem. I really don't know if we have this fly here, as my bulbs
seem to multiply readily every year. I'll ask at our Master Gardeners
meeting tomorrow.
> I myself would like to see someone dig into the patch where the bulbs ar
> supposed to be and actually find out what is there.
See my earlier post to Carol about why I didn't do it today; but, now that I
know about this fly, I'm going to suggest to the neighbors that they hunt
for the bulbs when they are working in that bed again.
> If they don't come up
> at all this year there is just no chance they could simply be lying
> dormant and come back next spring. This type of bulb simply has to put
> up some growth every year just to survive.
That's what I thought, but I wondered if there might be more to the
bulb-flowering mechanism than I knew. So I guess, whatever the cause, those
bulbs are not going to flower in spring 2004.
> They will become organic gardeners before they even
> know it!!
I would like to wean them from their chemical dependency. They have no
concept at all of organic gardening. See my next post on lawns.
Pat
If the bulbs were alive, they would have produced foliage, if not flowers the second and following years. I'll bet a mole or vole got them.
Carol
The water voles we have in Denmark just adore tulip bulbs and make large deposits of them to eat when frost comes. I'm pretty sure they don't die from them!
I would really like to know, Pat, why your neighbors didn't stick a spade in the ground when the bulbs didn't come up! I'm so curious; I would have done just that and solved the problem myself.
Carol
Patricia Ruggiero wrote:
Bill
While I agree with you poor nutrition may prevent bulbs flowering I have
yet to see any daffodil die out completely in one season just for lack
of nourishment. They may though come back only as poor skinny leaves and
no flowers. However if I understood Pat correctly these did not emerge
at all the second year.
I am wondering Pat if that nasty pest the Narcissus fly occurs in your
part of the world. it is a scourge of bulbs both in Europe and here and
can certainly destroy bulbs by eating them out during dormancy. I
myself whould like to see someone dig into the patch where the bulbs ar
supposed to be and actually find out what is there. It could be some
animal _has_ simply feasted on them while they were dormant or they
could have succumbed to poor drainage and rotted. If they don't come up
at all this year there is just no chance they could simply be lying
dormant and come back next spring. This type of bulb simply has to put
up some growth every year just to survive.
Brilliant work Pat. They will become orgaic gardeners before they even
know it!!
Moira
--
Tony & Moira Ryan,
Wainuiomata, North Island, NZ. Pictures of our garden at:-
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cherie1/Garden/TonyandMoira/index.htm
Diane and Moira have pretty much covered this one I think. Could I just add
that the commercial bulb growers amongst my relatives in my youth always
said that narcissus fly was more active in light soils such as you
describe. Sounds like their garden won't hold nutrients anyway until they
get some humus content and build up the bacteria. Also sounds like there is
only so much work they are prepared to do so if they will spread manure I
would encourage them to do so, fresh or not. Its better to spread fresh
than not to use any at all. In your climate I would suspect that if it is
watered regularly until it gets cool enough for fall seeding there will
have been a good deal of decomposition and a lot of any excess nitrogen
will have washed down into the soil - not the ideal scenario but better
than simply starving the ground. Of course if they are willing to stack it
and keep the stack watered and spread it at seeding
time..................but I guess this is more than they are probably up for.
On further thought I suspect that if the manure is spread and kept watered
the microherd will have a surprisingly large percentage incorporated in the
course of a couple of months and any excess can simply be raked to a new
patch before fall seeding, leaving greatly increased fertility behind. Then
if a mulching mower is used nature will do her familiar bootstrap
operation........I hope
The day lilies sound like a great idea - so much beauty for so little effort
kathryn
No, as I mentioned in the original post, they left the foliage to die
naturally (and the bulbs were not in the lawn anyway).
Also, today at our Master Gardeners monthly meeting I asked if the Narcissus
bulb fly was in our area. No one had experience with it, and the Extension
Agent said that, as far as he knew, it wasn't here. I'm still going to
suggest to the neighbors that as they amend the soil in that flower bed they
keep an eye out for the bulbs; perhaps we can learn something from the
"evidence."
Pat
I get like that when it is warmest in Denmark - somewhere between 86 and 88 or 90F. But that is usually only a couple of days each summer...
Carol
P.S. If the daffodils were scattered on their lawn, then they probably killed them off by mowing all the leaves right away. Especially if they were very small bulbs!
I've seen this happen more often than not with the daffodils bought at one
of the chain stores, very small bulbs. They blossom the year after planting
and are not seen again, especially if planted in an unamended soil. I have
coaxed some into growing into large bulbs in a nursery bed that has been
well amended with OM, but that can take a couple of years afterwards to get
them to blossom again. Quite often when I dig up a crowded clump I get small
bulbs that do need a couple of years, or more, in the nursery bed before
they can go out into a display bed.
Kimm
Kimm, why is it that the small bulbs *do* blossom that first spring after
planting? In my first post on this subject, I posed this question,
wondering if the growers stuff the bulbs with fertilizers sufficient for one
season's growth.
Pat
Kimm wrote:
These are exotic terms you use, Kimm: nursery bed and display bed! I have just the one, and the small bulbs, as you say, have to reach a certain size before flowering. I suppose the chain stores have a supplier that "drives" the bulbs to flower a couple of years before they should.
If that is the case, one would neither expect nor want the poor bulbs to flower again before they have the correct size. It is a kind of torture to drive small bulbs, I think!
But one would have to be a beginner to buy small bulbs, at least in Denmark, where one can see what one gets. Here the bulbs are always large.
Carol
Carol said:
> These are exotic terms you use, Kimm: nursery bed and display bed! I have
just the one, and the small bulbs, as you say, have to reach a certain size
before flowering. I suppose the chain stores have a supplier that "drives"
the bulbs to flower a couple of years before they should.
The "display beds" are those everyone can see, out front and very visible.
Out back, hidden by shrubs are the "nursery beds" where "stuff" not quite
ready for prime time is grown for a year or two before getting moved. This
could be the undersized daffodil bulbs, a gift plant that I want much more
of and that needs some time to get to a size that can be divided, something
I'm not real sure what it is or where it "fits". I have an "American Cottage
Garden" and unlike most designers recommendations I have no "Focal Point"
and the beds are not planted so they are balanced, but sometimes you need
time to find a spot to put stuff and the nursery bed gives me that.
All bulbs have the flower they are going to display next year already in the
bulb, but if they are not planted in good soil with enough of the nutrients
needed they cannot replenish themselves enough to grow more and peter out.
These undersized bulbs are just that and need a good, humus rich soil so
they can build themselves up for the years to come. Down around Holland, MI
is a grower of these bulbs (Jim Veldheer) and each year his beds are
enriched with compost he makes himself, a very large operation. The bulbs
are dug every year, sorted and the very large ones are put out for sale, but
the offsets, many of those the chain stores sell are that, offsets, are put
back in his "nursery beds" to grow again until large enough for either his
display beds or sale.
Kimm
Carol Jensen wrote:
> P.S. If the daffodils were scattered on their lawn, then they probably killed them off by mowing all the leaves right away. Especially if they were very small bulbs!
If these people are not very knowledgeable about gardening (as you seem
to imply) then Carol's PS makes sense, perhaps they just mowed the bulbs
off?
Tony
--
Tony & Moira Ryan,
Wainuiomata, North Island, NZ. Pictures of our garden at:-
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cherie1/Garden/TonyandMoira/index.htm
I'm fascinated by the vision of undersize bulbs that will flower, since
I've always been used to the concept of bulbs being "flowering size" or
"not flowering size". What flowering size actually is varies enormously
according to variety but I've never known undersize bulbs to flower.
But if the fly is out as a cause then we have to look at several other
factors I guess
1. When were the bulbs bought? I know it was fall but how late in the fall
and when were they actually planted. As we've talked about before the
flower bud was made the previous summer, and given adequate moisture the
bulb will produce leaves and that flower that was waiting in it. But if its
planted too late it may not make adequate roots before flowering so the
only food available to make a new bulb is what was in the previous years
leaves. And the bulb may be so stressed that it thinks its best option is
to try and survive by setting seed with that remaining energy and by
splitting up into smaller but more bulblets.
2. Is there enough food value in the soil for the bulb to develop a
flowering size bulb for the next season. Doesn't sound like it to me. I
wonder if they even recognised the few leaves that did manage to struggle
through - its hardly uncommon that beginner gardeners can't tell weak
narcissus leaves from grass.
Unlike tulips, the narcissus family has almost no natural dormancy. As soon
as the leaves die down the bulb starts making its roots for the next year
and it takes a long, long time doing it. If I lift narcissi in my garden
now they will just be starting on the roots that go with the leaves that
won't start showing until the spring. Tulips won't start making their new
roots until October or November. I'm actually planning to lift and split
and replant clumps this weekend into a very weedy patch and then cover
with newspaper and lawn clippings. The mulch will kill the weeds and break
down nicely into feed by the time they need it in late Autumn. I wonder if
you would risk trialling just a few good bulbs of your own fresh from the
garden to see what happens Pat.
And I don't think Carol's mention of wildlife should be ignored either -
not many things are stupid enough to eat daffodil bulbs but deer have
certainly been known to and I'm sure there are other things that do. Though
not, thank goodness, rabbits - don't get me started
kathryn
Patricia Ruggiero wrote:
> Also, today at our Master Gardeners monthly meeting I asked if the Narcissus
> bulb fly was in our area. No one had experience with it, and the Extension
> Agent said that, as far as he knew, it wasn't here.
Hi Patricia,
IIRC, the larvae come in with the bulbs, so it isn't necessary for the pest to
be established in the area for it to affect one's bulbs. My narcissi were fine
and increasing for several years (and there were a number of large clumps of old
daffs around an old house site out in the pasture), then the NBF suddenly
appeared and decimated all and sundry, so I'm assuming I imported it with bulbs.
Oh well. :-/
Diane.
Kathryn wrote:
> Could I just add
> that the commercial bulb growers amongst my relatives in my youth always
> said that narcissus fly was more active in light soils such as you
> describe.
I'm making a note of this for my next meeting with them.
> Also sounds like there is
> only so much work they are prepared to do
It's the husband who does the outdoor gardening; the wife tends the
houseplants.
He's 74, but a vigorous 74. It's not his age that is the obstacle, but more
the fact that he's not motivated to *become* a gardener. He's not
interested in acquiring a base of knowledge; he just wants to have a pretty
garden.
He's also a procrastinator.
Pat
Diane wrote:
> IIRC, the larvae come in with the bulbs, so it isn't necessary
> for the pest to
> be established in the area for it to affect one's bulbs.
*Groan*
I'm thinking more and more that I should be there when the husband starts
digging around in that bed, so I can see for myself the status of those
bulbs, assuming they are still there.
Pat
--- Patricia Ruggiero
Oh yes, try and be there....or at least ask him to save some bulbs so
you can inspect them later. I'd be very curious to see what they look
like! Please let us know.
Evelyn
zone 6 MO
Patricia Ruggiero wrote:
> He's also a procrastinator.
I'd be a procrastinator too if I could ever get a round tuit. ;-P
Diane.
Chuckle!
Pat
Kathryn wrote:
> 1. When were the bulbs bought? I know it was fall but how late in the fall
> and when were they actually planted.
Don't know; have made note to ask them next time.
> 2. Is there enough food value in the soil for the bulb to develop a
> flowering size bulb for the next season. Doesn't sound like it to me.
You answered your question.
> I
> wonder if they even recognised the few leaves that did manage to struggle
> through - its hardly uncommon that beginner gardeners can't tell weak
> narcissus leaves from grass.
I'll mention that point to them, as well as all the other useful info in
your post.
> Though not, thank goodness, rabbits - don't get me started
Uh oh......
Many thanks to you and Kimm for much good info on the mechanism of bulb
growth.
Pat
