Crabgrass is an annual grass (no rhizomes or runners) that germinates
fairly early in the season and then sort of sulks around till the weather
warms up and it really grows. Easiest controls are to hoe the area
fairly frequently when the seedlings are just germinating, and plant
closely enough together that you've got shoulder-to-shoulder plants
when the time comes that crabgrass wants to grow. If close planting
(the weed science folks call it "canopy closure") won't work for you,
mulch between the rows with any light-occlusive mulch: newspaper,
cardboard, old carpet, heavy wood chips, etc.
If you decide to go the pre-emergent route, make sure that you
don't choose something that will hurt one of your crops. Or you
might also try something like Finale, a contact herbicide with
low toxicity to animals, dabbed on the grasses. (I'm fairly sure
it's labeled for crabgrass).
Kay Lancaster kay@fern.com
I think I need help (well, maybe more than most of you are qualified to give
so I'll ask a gardening question). I've decided to check into pre emergence
weed control this year. I don't like using chemicals if I can help it but
I'm really tired of fighting crabgrass which gets into my raised garden
beds. I've been spending a little time each day digging and pulling the darn
stuff out and I'm about ready to plant some cool weather things. Is is safe
to use before planting veggies and will it be effective for most of the
season? If so, what would you recommend?
Thanks for any help you can give me.
Pat from Phoenix where the weather is absolutely beautiful and I will be the
first one to whine when July heat arrives.
Kay, I forgot to thank you for this. I have been mulching in past seasons,
guess I was just looking for an easier way. Think I will try Finale in combo
with mulching. Our hot summers make really the darn grass take off.
Pat who has snow peas and garlic up.
Frank Teuton wrote:
> As far as 'No-Hoe' is concerned, I go with Mama Nature's no-hoe--it's
> called mulch! :-)
> If you want to keep weeds down in an open soil environment, the wheel
> hoe should make short work of your 5000 sq ft,
In this area (very wet springs) the mulch method has problems with
slugs and slowing soil warming. The wheel hoe gets bogged down
in the mud. They work later in the year.
Here is a collection of strange and bizarre ideas that sometimes
work:
Cover the soil over the winter with anything that blocks light and
rain then remove it a week before planting. A man down the road
has an old tarp he continuously moves all summer. There are lots
of variations on this idea and it works well with perennials.
Occasionally, I have succeeded in growing plants that are better
competitors than most weeds. The Sun Choke is a good candidate
for this. Squash is a great weed block and works with corn or
chokes.
It is possible sometimes to grow perennials which shade the weeds.
Then plant a leaf crop in the shade. It is still necessary to
remove a few weeds, but they are easier pull. Other intensive or
multi-planting ideas shade the weeds in raised beds.
Permanent mulch of old lumber or other organic materials reduces
the need to weed.
The best solution isn't available to everyone but it is quite
popular in nature. There are these two legged and four legged
creatures that eat weeds. Rotating them into an area works
well. Big ones like sheep work around trees.
Another approach I'm now trying is to grow a grain crop in an area
for a few years to reduce the weeds. Then push the grain over
and add mulch if needed. It seems to take the weeds a long time
to make a comeback. I tried barley last year and this year
I'm trying rye.
Plant a cover crop that dies in either summer or winter weather.
This will smother the weeds and is easy to work with when summer
arrives. Rye works sometimes as does vetch and oats.
I just read about a lady who plants her garden in the fall and
avoids having to work with muddy soil. I assume she plants
things like cole crops that pop up before the weeds take over.
Does anyone else do this?
For the really adventuresome, find someone doing time for robbery
and ask them to write a letter saying the money is buried under a
weedy patch in your garden. If a bunch of people show up with
shovels, you know your friends mail is being monitored and the
weeds are in trouble.
----------
Jeff Owens (kowens@teleport.com) Zone 6-7
Underground house, solar energy, reduced consumption, no TV
Jeff Owens wrote:
Like you we have wet spring conditions. I have raised beds and pull the
mulch off as soon as thawing permits. If I want to direct seed, I
surface cultivate as soon as the top coupla inches are dry enough to
allow it. In my small garden (1200 sq ft paths and beds included) a
wheel hoe is redundant; in a larger garden the wheel hoe can be the tool
for surf cult action, and is available with a pivot option for the
handle for pathway walking while surf-culting the raised, un walked upon
beds. Unlike your climate, the rain gods are not quite so overflowing
here, still raising the beds in various ways is an excellent way to rise
above the mud in early spring.
> I just read about a lady who plants her garden in the fall and
> avoids having to work with muddy soil. I assume she plants
> things like cole crops that pop up before the weeds take over.
> Does anyone else do this?
Well, we plant garlic in the fall, does that count? :-) Many good
gardeners here set up their raised beds in the fall so as to be ready
first thing in spring. In warmer zones favas and peas can be fall sown;
like you, I have a patch of rye that I planted last fall that I hope
will produce something for that inverted, enclosed router motor thingy
known as the Vita-Mix...
The truly reckless can invite the circus to stable its elephants in your
yard, next pass through town. Weed destruction by feeding, trampling, or
smother mulching via giant elephant boluses (boli?) ought to do the
deed! Or hold a Greatful Dead concert...
Frank--noting that for weed control, the first days really are the
hardest days; also this prison mail trick is less highly thought of
today, now that we know that deep holes aren't really that good for tree
transplanting; plus police excavators are a pest for which there is no
known effective control, organic or otherwise, once probable cause is
established...keeping nose clean is best...;->
Frank I'm totally clueless about this. Could you elaborate?
> like you, I have a patch of rye that I planted last fall that I hope
> will produce something for that inverted, enclosed router motor thingy
> known as the Vita-Mix...
Sudoa Farm, Notch Hill, BC
awarren@jetstream.net
A number of organic growers in the area here a re-exploring the idea of
flame weeders, which were gaining popularity (especially for contton)
before the advent of herbicides. basically it sends a very hot flame to the
soil surface between the rows and "cooks" the small weeds. Its
particulalrly recommended for slow germinating crops like carrots but I've
seen photos of it through 1/2 foot high beans. I'm leary of the impact on
the soil surface life and the plants themselves. Does anyone have opinions
about this?
Anne
Sudoa Farm, Notch Hill, BC
awarren@jetstream.net
Sudoa Farm wrote:
Shore nuff, Anne:
The Vita-Mix is a powerful blender that can grind grain into flour; I'm
hoping to get rye for breadmaking out of my rye patch and into the
Vita-Mix to grind it into flour.
The router is an amazing woodworking tool with a motor ranging from one
to three horsepower. The Vita-Mix is a two horsepower motor with a
variable speed control, and I've been speculating lately that someone
very clever could make a unit to fit on a router motor; my speculations
sometimes spill over into my writing in a bit of a messy way, (though
Bill Mollison says that tidiness is a sign of frontal lobe damage) so
there you go!
Vita-Mixes are expensive and rather noisy, but in addition to grinding
grain you can make "Total Juice" with all the fiber, and ice cream. With
two children seriously allergic to peanuts, we have little choice but to
make our own, and the V-M makes it easy compared to other methods.
When we lived in an apartment, we used the V-M to blend kitchen wastes
before adding it to dry peat moss and putting it in the worm bin. This
made it possible to accurately gauge the moisture level of the material
and insured that things like eggshells and chicken bones were ground
small enough to "share the wealth" of their mineral content equally
through out the mix. The V-M people recommend a separate container for
composting; some people who I hope are very careful say they use one for
everything. (Example: grind chicken bones immediately after making the
soup stock, then clean up machine immediately thereafter--avoid those
meat-infesting bacterial nasties!)
Hope that semi-clarifies my ramblings,
Frank--afraid of being routed on the Vita-Mix/router relation...
Jeff
[...]
> I just read about a lady who plants her garden in the fall and
> avoids having to work with muddy soil. I assume she plants
> things like cole crops that pop up before the weeds take over.
> Does anyone else do this?
[...]
Hi Jeff,
We've fall planted spinach a few times, that works great. Either early
enough so that it germinates in the fall and then mulched for the winter,
or later so that it germinates the following spring.
Other things I've had readily sprout in the spring from volunteer seedings
are lettuce, carrots, cilantro, red orach, dill, parsley, pac choi, kale
and ... I'm trying to remember what else, I know there's more. Anyway,
all of these would be easily fall sown, they are all early spring
germinators.
We also get volunteer cosmos, calendula, alyssum and others.
Cheers!
--
Bob Carter - bcarter@wkpowerlink.com
Kootenay Bay, BC, Canada - Zone 6b
--
Mosquito - designed to make houseflies look better.
Sudoa Farm wrote:
As you say, works for small annual weeds. I've used it to defoliate
dandelions in cracks and it works but of course they regrow, the usual
rule of 5-6 defoliations for dandelions also applies to scorching them.
Again as you say the idea is to cook or scorch rather than burn the
weeds. Of course anything right on the surface, like little bugs friend
or foe, also gets fried. Your own observations are likely your best
guide to the impact it might have. Pulling heavy metal across land also
has an impact; flaming avoids disturbing the soil, at least.
Question: fuel source. If propane or natural gas, ye old fossil fuel Q
rears its head; if methane (farm generated) is used, what cost?
Peaceful Valley has the equipment, BTW.
Frank--fired up on flaming weeds, a burning question (or rather a
scorcher). Sounds toasty compared to our blizzard action...
Yes, indeed! (Though this year in this area seems not so wet and not so
slug-ridden as usual...or is that just me?)
We have done this very successfully. It keeps the soil dry, too, which is
a large bonus here.
I've tried using the preceding 2 ideas together, with good results: grow
squash using dark fabric or black plastic as "mulch." This helps the
squash grow better in our cool summers, and reduces weeds in that garden
area. Whatever is grown there the next year really seems to benefit.
Maybe the
weeds germinate in the warmth then die and compost under there?
Last year, I tried an experiment with two new and identically-prepared
beds. In one, I sowed buckwheat as spring cover. In the other, I let
whatever weeds were going to sprout go ahead. After each stand was up good
and thick, I pulled the all weeds from the "weed bed" and planted some
stuff (root crops, a cardoon seedling, some brussels sprouts, some cosmos,
and beans). In the other, I only pulled the buckwheat where I was going to
plant, and planted some other stuff (squashes, quinoa and, of course,
beans). I ended up cutting the buckwheat (and replanting all the
squashes!) in that bed. The buckwheat bed was *far* cleaner of weeds than
the other bed, and still is this year, too. The only drawback seemed to be
that it hampered the squashes by keeping the soil too cool, and favouring
wireworms which ate the seed.
LOL!
Diane Ridout, Instructor, ACP.............................................
Kwantlen University College, "Talk
12666-72 Avenue doesn't
Surrey, BC, Canada V3W 2M8 cook rice," they say.
Tel: (604) 599-2964 Voice mail 9837.......................................
You just had to say that bit about it being dry, didn't you Diane. I don't
know about your weekend, but ours was soaking wet -- 8/10ths of an inch in
a couple of hours.... And a lightning storm that freaked my dog out so much
that she tried to hide in the hot box and broke out all the glass. In doing
so she sliced her foot pads wide open. I thought Friday the 13th was last
week....
> Yes, indeed! (Though this year in this area seems not so wet and not so
> slug-ridden as usual...or is that just me?)
*******************************
Natalie McNair-Huff
Publisher/Editor Mac Net Journal
http://www.blol.com/web_mnj/
Diane wrote:
> Yes, indeed! (Though this year in this area seems not so wet and not so
> slug-ridden as usual...or is that just me?)
Natalie:
> You just had to say that bit about it being dry, didn't you Diane. I don't
> know about your weekend, but ours was soaking wet --
Yeah Diane, you've really done it now. Everything squishes around
here and now I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Those slugs
were just waiting for someone to say something like that.
Diane:
I'm currently having good success with the vigorous winter squash in
weedy areas (knock on wood). Last year I had a few hubbard seeds
germinate at the edge of one garden in fairly poor soil. At the
end of the year when the weeds died we found enough squash to feed
us all winter. I was surprised the vine had survived.
This year I'm going to try cutting the weeds down and making a small
mound of compost. This will be seeded to the small heirloom hubbard
that Shumway has reintroduced. We had trouble eating those big hubbard
squash so this small variety might be just right. I'm going to ignore
the weeds and see what happens.
Another big advantage of squash is that many animals do not like
walking on them. I think deer and possibly racoons are deterred
by squash. At least we have never seen the deer go near them.
This might be a interesting way to protect a garden.
Their is also the fact that some of the natural pests which bother
squash have not found this area yet. Hopefully, those vine borers
are not on this list or know enough geography to find the West Coast.
----------
Jeff Owens (kowens@teleport.com) Zone 6-7
Underground house, solar energy, reduced consumption, no TV
> You just had to say that bit about it being dry, didn't you Diane.
Yup. ;-)
> I don't
> know about your weekend, but ours was soaking wet -- 8/10ths of an inch in
> a couple of hours....
There was a bit of rain yesterday, more today (and hail, sun, wind,
thunder, but no lightning I could see--so we had all the weather!)
OOhh--there was a rumble just now, and the lights flickered...yow.
> And a lightning storm that freaked my dog out so much
> that she tried to hide in the hot box and broke out all the glass. In doing
> so she sliced her foot pads wide open. I thought Friday the 13th was last
> week....
Oh, that's terrible...I hope she's doing better now, poor poor little
thing!
What I meant was not so much just this weekend, but the general spring
weather this year. This last week, in particular, has been beautiful, and
the soil is very warm for this time of year, bringing on all sorts of
things very early. Our peas, planted just last weekend, are already up and
going, rhubarb nearly ready to start picking, and there are so many things
in bloom--well, mustn't gloat too much over people who have snow
still...(although *they* ruddy well *will* gloat over having tomatoes ripe
earlier than we do, that is if we get any at all due to the blight...and
melons, which we can't really grow outside at all...)
Hope your dog is better soon,
Diane Ridout, Instructor, ACP.............................................
Kwantlen University College, "Talk
12666-72 Avenue doesn't
Surrey, BC, Canada V3W 2M8 cook rice," they say.
Tel: (604) 599-2964 Voice mail 9837.......................................
> In this area (very wet springs) the mulch method has problems with
> slugs and slowing soil warming. The wheel hoe gets bogged down
> in the mud. They work later in the year.
I'm a little warmer than the Estcada area since I live in portland, oregon
but we too get a lot of cool and wetness in the springs, no jokes as you
know :-)
We've been trying different things for mulching that will work well given
our long cool wet springs...things that balance soil warming and low/no
weed volumes. It's an evolving process especially given that the last two
winters have been so mild so things are a little different. Here are some
of my observations:
(a) Fall mulching
If we apply mulch thickly in the fall then we often pull it back in spring
for the beds to warm up. However, this means exciting ground for weeds
just when they (and everybody) are growing crazy due to the light levels.
So we have been trying other things:
We mostly thick mulch on winter harvested eating crops and tender
perennials. After the winter annual eating crops we don't plant anything
in the beds save cover crop and if it grows slowly, okay. As enough light
begins to reach the beds (either because we've eaten the crop or because
it's bolting and growing more upright) we just sprinkle vetch or some
other small seed on top of the mulch and it germs fine (sometimes if we
have some extra dark compost we might seed some larger seeds and cover
them very lightly with the dark compost (which soon finds it way down).
Anyhow, the bed does warm up very slowly but we're in no hurry just so
long as the vetch or whathaveyou outgrows most of the weeds.... This does
create some slug habitat and when we're having a sluggy time we find it
better to pull back the mulch for reapplicaiton once things are much
drier.
With the perennials they seem to outgrow the slugs even without pulling
back the mulch...they probably grow a bit slower since the soil is a bit
cooler but I ain't in no hurry.
But, with fall mulching we mostly just apply a thin mulch (preferably of
shredded leaves) somewhere between 1/4"-3/4" in the fall. I find that it
helps keep the weeds down through the low light season (unlike some
other places plants really do grow year round around here) and is nearly
"gone" or all the way "gone" by spring time so doens't need to be pulled
back to warm the soil.
But, because of time and scale not all our beds get this fall mulch.
Luckily they all get an early planting of cover (even if this involves
undersowing). Vetch is esp. good at lieing down, esp. if you don't give it
only a few tall things (favs, grasses) to grow up. It really blocks out
the weeds and the ones that germ are spindly and easily pulled what with
reaching for light :-) I do notice that with this thick a cover (it's
really really thick and lush and a boon to the pollinators when it's
blooming like the favas and peas are now) what we've got is a living mulch
and this does keep the soil temps down. This past year I've been thinking
of different ways to deal with this when I want to warm the soil but also
don't want to do the pull the cover long before planting thingy and
yet at ;least at transplant time need to do something a little
something since the baby transplants are all but obscured by the
jungle of legumes...Too many experiments going on to describe...maybe I'll
light on something great for rainy cool spring climes and pass it on.
Portland is just too warm to reliably winter kill most any fall planted
cover crop...Buckwheat does winterkill and I like to broadcast fall crop
right into the buckwheat and watch the buckwheat "dissappear" with the
frosts :-) However, by itself winter-killed buckwheat doesn't seem thick
enough to smother our winter germing and growing weeds. I had an
experimental fall planting of garbanzos winterkill and I think it would
again but that fall-planted crop wasn't vigourous enough to provide enough
mulch so...I guess a mid-summer planting might work but then I'd have to
water it and other things...
More and more I am moving in this direction: Perennials of course are
different thing, but with annuals I find the times to plant and
garden around here are summer and fall...not early-mid spring. (Actually,
those are good perennial planting times too...you just don't have to do it
every year :-)
An example: Brassicas like mid-summer planting around here a lot better
than spring planting....more dependable weather to get established
in...miss the root maggots and are very big by the time the slugs come
around. Also increasing light induces bolting so they stick around longer
when they're growing during decreasing light.... Annual root crops seem to
like mid/late summer plantings better as well....Lettuce too can last a
lot longer into the fall than into the spring imho. And, lots of annuals
can actually be sown in late summer and will overwinter as little babies
and take off in the spring in ways that spring sown won't. Part of it is
that the decreasing light of late summer tells the plants focus on roots,
focus on roots and roots are what allow them to outgrow those slug and
their ilk in the spring...Likewise mid to late summer can be a great time
to get perennials in the ground (even baby perennials). They may need a
little extra watering for a little bit but they will focus on roots which
is what you want when they first get in the ground.
These days when folks ask me about when to do things in the garden in
Portland I say summer and fall! Sure there are things to do in Feb thru
mid-May but really not enough to warrant all the "spring weekend
planting warriors" imho...go hiking and then come back to get that
overwintering garden in! It's a weird concept for folks to get we're so
used to a continental clime bias...people come over in July and scratch
their heads about what's going on my garden...then in Novemeber when I've
got lush edibles and they've got bare ground (or *sometime* but not enough
times some kind of green growing non-edible) they scratch their head
again, get a little jealous and say shucks next year I'm going to plant
those cabbages when you did....
[Course growing for a market is a compromising situation...one in which
you do find yourself doing things/forcing things when, well, when you know
that it isn't the best time but that is another novel]
my not that humble 2 cents,
:-)
eliza
Uh yup, I forgot to add a good percentage of our beds are raised and like
you said, they do dry out quicker in the spring. The rest of the beds are
on their slow way to becoming raised...
:-)
eliza
This is biodynamic, but it is so easy I thought those with bad weed problems might like to use this method.
One gathers seeds of all weeds that one wants to get rid of. Then one has two options:
1. a small wood fire with the seeds in. Ashes are gathered and sprinkled on the 40 acres.
2. the seeds are burnt in a frying pan, then mixed with garden soil and sprinkled on the 40 acres.
Should work every time. Save some seeds for next spring, if some of the weeds come up anyway.
It's almost 4 A.M. and I'm so engrossed in this science book that I find it impossible to go to bed. Think I'll try to do some of the experiments myself!
(Imagine growing wheat 16 meters below the ground in January).
Carol
Dear Carol
....del..>
I would be very interested in hearing about the results of your experiments.
The essence of Science is the "Scientific Method", which states basically
"If something is true, others can duplicate the results." Be sure to do
exactly as the Procedure specifies, so that there will be no question of the
Truth, or lack thereof, of the concept.
Kindest regards,
Kevin
Carol Jensen wrote:
Carol
How interesting
The place where my carelessly-made compost is a bother with weeds is
sometimes in my potting compost. I think I might try the frying pan
method for baked seeds to mix whith this. If I have any luck I'll let
you know.
Moira
--
Tony & Moira Ryan
Wainuiomata (near Wellington, capital city of New Zealand)
Dear Carol
OK... so the Kolisko's could get results. Has anyone else been able to
follow their protocol, and get similar results? You indicated that you were
going to do some experiments yourself; this would be a great opportunity to
prove, or disprove the concept.
Kevin Chisholm
> Dear Carol
Kevin, I do know what the scientific method is about, and believe me, all scientists use it. These worked from 1918 until 1939 (when Eugene Kilisko died) and until 1979 (when Lilly Kolisko died), often carrying out the same experiments 5 or more years.
Carol
If it works in that case, try it on the entire garden. If you get rid of your own weeds, or those which you don't want, you save a lot of work!
Carol
> Dear Carol
Dear Kevin,
It is not just the Koliskos in the 20's, but all biodynamic farmers since then!
But I certainly will try with my noxious weeds.
Carol
I don't understand why you would need to respread the burnt
seeds. What does that do in terms of weed control? Does it only
work with annuals?
I also have bindweed, as do some organic farmers around here -
who have excellent, loamy soil. I have also read that it flourishes in
compacted soil, but obviously can do well in other soils too.
Sabra B. Robinson
Sabra's Fruit and Nut Farm
Amesville, Ohio 45711
I do know of another person who used this
successfully. Farming in Oregon, he struggled with
Canadian thistle infestation in a pasture, and finally
did the ashing, to discover the following year that it
was gone, for all practical purposes. Was he
surprised!
Nancy
__________________________________________________
Thanks for the support, Nancy!
Kevin, of course I am willing to try all the things I suggest. But you won't believe it until you try it yourself - you know that!!!! This is also just like a scientist.
Carol
Somekind of double blind would be good as well. I'm thinking of
something where the farmer did not know which half of the field was
ashed and which had a placebo.
I should reiterate that I have no problem with people using magic,
just with people making scientific claims for magic. I personally
think the turning point for my gardening efforts that happened
somewhere between 5 and 8 years ago, is that I allowed myself to
fully love my gardens and everything about them good and bad.
I highly recomend love as the most essential ingredient in organic
gardening, however I make no claim to this being in anyway
scientific. It worked for me, but I won't try to prove it because it is
not provable.
Ashing as it is described and recomended should be provable or
disprovable. I'd like to see properly set up scientific studies to do
either. And if it is not scientifically provable, I'd like to see it
presented as an article of faith rather than as a proved fact.
I am fully aware that there are other ways of knowing, and things
that science cannot explain. However, if something is going to be
dressed in the language of science then it should function within
the parameters of science.
sph
Sandra P. Hoffman
ghidra@magma.ca
http://www.flora.org/sandra/
Eastern Ontario, Canada. USDA zone 4
Dear Carol
....del...
I would "believe" any credible source, and would not have to do the tests
myself to be convinced that the process works, or does not work. In the
paradigm from which I operate, the "Ashing Concept" does not make sense. I
feel it would not be sensible to change my paradigm based only on "belief in
an anecdotal report."
I don't believe in "Crystal Power", "Pyramid Power", and other similar
metaphysical concepts. However, I do feel that there may be a potential for
"Planting by the Moon" to influence growing.
There is a local saying "Burn brush on the decline of the full moon." I
believe this is effective, because it has a generally rational support: Full
moons are generally accompanied by clear skies, and therefore a dry period;
on the "decline of the full moon", the brush has had several days to dry
somewhat, and will be more likely to burn readily.
If we "want things to work", I would suggest that we should "look for a
repeatable formula", rather than simply "believing" that something will
work. I don't "believe" that adding Organic Matter will improve the moisture
retention capability of my mineral soil... I absolutely know for certain
that it will. Such "absolute truths" make life simple.
Organic Gardening is wonderfully complex. We can only begin to understand
it, and make it work for us consistently when understand what is happening.
Having the benefit of a few absolutes immeasurably helps understand what is
going on, and what we should do to "cure" problems. Or, perhaps better said,
what we should do to help Good Old Mother Nature (GOMN) cure the problem for
us.
If ashing actually does work, then GREAT!! If it doesn't work, it would be
nice to be able to trash the concept, and move on to some other concepts
that could indeed be helpful.
Nancy's story is anecdotal. We don't know for sure that she had first hand
knowledge of the event. We don't know if the Farmer followed the Ashing
Protocol correctly. We don't know if he additionally did other treatments at
the same time. We don't know if the weather was the same from one year to
the next. A much more credible report would be a condition where he treated
half a field with ashing, and left the other half untreated, and then
observed the results.
Kindest regards,
Kevin Chisholm
Hello to all,
I do not consider "organic matter improves soil water holding capacity" to
be an absolute truth. I do know however that soil science literature
contains mechanistic explanations of how soil organic matter impacts soil
hydrologic properties that I consider to be logical and in accord with well
established principles of biology, chemistry and physics.
I would be interested in hearing a mechanistic explanation of why the ashing
of the seeds of "weedy" plants negatively impacts the vitality of future
"weeds".
Joel
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Well, Sandra, knowing what a scientific protocol involves, I doubt I could satisfy ANY of you. Weighing the weed seeds before and after ashing, weighing the soil mixed in to potentize - no siree, not my way.
Carol, who does not own any scales at all
Dear Carol
There are some mysteries that we will perhaps never understand, and as you
say, we would not want to understand them. However, there are some other
"lower level mysteries, which would rank at the "puzzle" or "problem" level.
If we can understand these "puzles" or "problems", then we can do things
which make the system work better, and to our advantage, without in any way
lessening the grandeur of the Greater Mysteries.
How do you make foilar sprays stick to leaves? How do you control aphids?
How do you increase the moisture retention capability of a mineral soil, to
reduce fruit cracking? These are all puzzles and problems with solutions, if
we choose to look. The solutions will work, and cure the problem. It strikes
me as rather silly to "take a chance" on "Crystals" or "Pyramid Power" to
protect roses against aphids, when simple and effective solutions are
available, if we choose to open our minds and be a bit mechanistic.
Now, while I think that "Pyramid Power" is a silly way to keep aphids off my
rhododenderons, or Vine Borers out of my pumpkin vines, I would not demean
"Pyramid Power" as perhaps an efective way to boost my spirits, or raise my
consciousness levels, simply because these are equivalently abstract
concepts. Tangible problems have tangible solutions.
There is a bit of romantic in all of us. Some moreso than others. Why bother
loving an aphid laden rose bush, or playing serene music to it, when a
squirt of cold water is guaranteed to be effective? There is a lot of good
to be said for "mechanistic solutions." They work. They can be passed on to
others. Ignoring them brings unnecessary hardship and disappointment into
ones "Finer Life".
Why not combine the best of both worlds?
Kevin Chisholm
Joel, I doubt anyone can give you a mechanistic explanation, as we are over into mystical forces (formative forces) here. Does it really matter, if it works? Me, I think something mystical that works is even better than something one can understand logically...
Carol
> Dear Carol
Kevin, I am an old-time gardener like so many of us - never even read a book until 87-90. I use all the mechanistic stuff, though I never need to spray (except last summer with milk).
I have a great garden, but a garden can always get better. I don't seem to have any pests but the carrot fly, but you guys have all sorts of pests in the US. Therefore I thought you might like to know how the biodynamicists get rid of their pests, insect or animal.
Carol
> There are some mysteries that we will perhaps never understand, and as you
> say, we would not want to understand them. However, there are some other
> "lower level mysteries, which would rank at the "puzzle" or "problem"
level.
> If we can understand these "puzles" or "problems", then we can do things
> which make the system work better, and to our advantage, without in any
way
> lessening the grandeur of the Greater Mysteries.
Hang on a minute. In trying to understand the mysteries we broaden our
horizons. The easiest trap for us humans to fall into is that of ego, or
know all, or closed mind. Mysteries are valuable in that the act of
attempting to understand cracks open that shell of ours a bit. This is, I
suspect one of the original purposes of most religions, to crack open our
shells:-)
Of course, deciding that we *do* understand slams that crack shut again.
In the context of the garden, I try to be of openmind, while considering the
many possible explanations, while remembering that we probably arent even
close yet to actually understanding the mysteries of nature, in other words;
to shut the monkey brain up and open the eyes.
Of course, being human, I usually fail in this.
The attempt to understand alone is valuable, as long as we dont get stuck in
ego, or 'I know it all'
> How do you make foilar sprays stick to leaves? How do you control aphids?
> How do you increase the moisture retention capability of a mineral soil,
to
> reduce fruit cracking? These are all puzzles and problems with solutions,
if
> we choose to look. The solutions will work, and cure the problem. It
strikes
> me as rather silly to "take a chance" on "Crystals" or "Pyramid Power" to
> protect roses against aphids, when simple and effective solutions are
> available, if we choose to open our minds and be a bit mechanistic.
I dont recall anybody suggesting that pyramids will kill aphids.
But I have seen evidence that pyramids have beneficial effects in *some*
situations.
Again, good husbandry is the foundation of all of this. And compost is the
foundation of good husbandry.
I have, however, seen enough unexplainable things to give pretty much
anything at least one try. And some of the oddball things I have tried
*seem* to have made a difference.
I am also a great believer in following my intuition. It is a tool which
works better the more we use it.
> There is a bit of romantic in all of us. Some moreso than others. Why
bother
> loving an aphid laden rose bush, or playing serene music to it, when a
> squirt of cold water is guaranteed to be effective? There is a lot of good
> to be said for "mechanistic solutions." They work. They can be passed on
to
> others. Ignoring them brings unnecessary hardship and disappointment into
> ones "Finer Life".
You miss the point. It is not that love or pyramids or the stars *replace*
good basic husbandry (cant think of a suitably PC term right now), but that
they are aspects of subtle forces which *compliment* good husbandry, in fact
love and good husbandry are almost synonymous. So a loving squirt with the
hose seems better than one with an intent of hating the aphids.
> I was raised in and try to practice a spiritual/religious
> tradition (that I will not name or discuss further on this list)
That deserves at least two brownie points.
> I hope that OGL list members will share their personal observations of
> companion planting relationships.
When borage is grown by tomatoes, a moth (not sure which one, but those
caterpillars certainly peeled back the borage)seems to prefer to lay its
eggs on the borage.
Most flowers are good companions for most veges.
And all flowers are good companions for me:-)
Swani.
Aotearoa (NZ)
If ashing weeds worked, we would all be doing it. I don't believe this process is worth the time to even try. I am sure that if it did work every scientist in the world would be working on such a program. If one could ash weed seed, then we could ash virus "seed" and
eliminate HIV and many other pests. I used to belong to the biodynamic list and left because of claims of scientific fact that were just "quackery" in my opinion. I don't think all those animals being ashed in England is going to do a darn thing to eliminate H and M
disease, but maybe this is just cause they aren't spraying those ashes over the globe......give me a break, how gullible do you think we are here???!!!!
I strongly feel that discussions of this B.S. does not belong here and while I don't want to blast anyone here, I am finding this list less and less useful to the furthering of Organic Farming and gardening at least for me. I consider much of this writing "weeds"
and delete more and more unread messages from this list. Perhaps I just need to unsubscribe.
Those of you who have your heads in the clouds and believe in such nonsense should take this to the biodynamic list where you will find other "believers". I for one do not wish to be bombarded with such claims. After all the world is flat is a belief that was
squashed many eons ago, yet still there are persons who would argue that indeed the world is flat.
Chris
Certified Organic Farmer
I'm having great success with a product called Concern Fast Acting Weed
Killer. You can get it from planetnatural.com. I just spray the
unwanted vegetation, and in a few hours it is wilted and brown. I do
use it in the sun but it's not blistering hot down here yet, still
relatively cool and pleasant. The weeds are tough here, so I am
impressed. I do also want to try the vinegar. Before the summer is
out, I'm sure I will have tried everything!
I am enjoying all the Springtime posts. Have fun planting, y'all.
JJ in the Coastal South
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